PansyTart's measuring system for custom-fit devices

Discussion in 'Chastity device discussions and reviews' started by PansyTart, Jan 12, 2011.

  1. filmriss
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    filmriss Junior Member

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    what a quick reply!
    again, i admire your measuring system, but the one thing you didnt take into account (and the thing that fueled my response(i should have mentioned that earlier)) was/were people with varying/low hanging/everchanging ballsacks. its winter from where im writing, and im sure i can keep my good old jailbird up and running during these months, but any other time of the year, its the cage-diameter that keeps me high and dry (no pun, none).
    from your pictures, you seem to have a mighty firm ballsack - thats the reason i felt i needed to speak up. for all the skinny low hanging ball-types.
     
  2. PansyTart
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    PansyTart MsTreat's sissy bitch

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    Good point. Mine varies quite a bit by temperature, but I can simulate summer heat/humidity by wrapping it all up in tight underwear/jeans and sitting on my tush all day in a warm office at work. As I've mentioned, I get no more than a 1/2-inch "slip-down" when they're hanging looser and lower and are moist. That said, when the summer hits in Central Texas where I live, I might need to adjust the gap smaller. I might even eventually go with a very narrow gap set for warm weather and a wider gap set for cold weather.

    I know a smaller ring/cage ID won't work for me because I've tried it via the other four devices I had even in warm weather. Ultimately, I'm guessing each person needs to suss out the particulars of their own anatomy and find the best approach for them. Hopefully my method gives folks a starting point for trying out other things if they don't think my method will work for them. And everyone's goals are different too. My goal is full-time 24/7/365 wear, so I make some trade-offs for comfort and hygiene that others might not be willing to do. Yes, I *could* pull out from the top (not as easily as you think, certainly not accidentally), but again I bet that anyone without a belt or a piercing to lock the glans in the tip can pull out of any tube no matter how tight and no matter how constricting the base ring. I could pull out of a CB-3000 with an uber-restrictive base ring and tiny gap. All it took was soapy water and patience. (It was my first device, and like many, I was obsessed with the idea of "inescapable", so I was putting on the most ridiculously tight base ring I could possibly squeeze on and using like one small spacer for the gap. Pulled right out the top within 1 minute in the shower.
     
  3. Mark121
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    Mark121 Nobody of consequence

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    PansyTart: What an outstanding analysis of the issues involved with getting a good fit for a "ball trap" device! As you show, there are a LOT of things to think about that make the difference between an OK fit and a perfect fit. You certainly put a lot of hard work and thought into your system, and have presented it in a clear and readable fashion. However, I have a few points I would like to add, mostly concerning the "gap" between the base ring and the entrance to the tube.

    Firstly, for those who don't have much background in geometry, some terms need to be defined. If you lay the base ring on a table top, with the pin sticking up, the tabletop is the "plane" of the ring. Measurements in that plane are in a "radial" direction. Measurements in the direction the pin is facing, pointing away from the plane of the ring, are in an "axial" direction.

    In looking at your photos, I would have to say that, in my opinion, the internal diameter of your tube could be a bit smaller. If you read Lori's advice for fitting, she advocates having a snug fit when completely limp. However, a tube that tight would be extremely hard to get on. With a CB3K, I found that I had plenty of wiggle room. When I got my custom device, a Mature Metal "Watchful Mistress", I had the ID made a little smaller, and it fits well. One method of experimenting with diameters is to go to your local home improvement store. In the plumbing section, they sell flexible plastic tubing, for connecting dishwasher, etc, in a variety of IDs. If you are *really* courageous, you could try them in the store, though it would be more discrete to buy short pieces of different sizes, and try them at home.

    Being a "grower", my biggest issue was with standard devices being too long. I have a PA piercing to secure my penis tip in the tube, and too much space between the tip of my soft penis and the end of the tube would cause too much pull. When I get an erection with the device on, it pushes the entire device forward, putting a little pull on my scrotum, but it is not uncomfortable.

    As you have observed, it is really the gap between the base ring and the entrance to the tube that prevents removal of the device. The gap has two components: a radial component, caused by the difference in diameter between the base ring and the tube, and an axial component, caused by the distance between the plane of the base ring and the plane of the tube entrance. When you specify the gap measurement when ordering a device, you are specifying the axial component of the gap. Technically, with an oval base ring, an oval doesn't really have a diameter, but we can treat it as if it does to keep things simple. Viewed from the front, the tube and the base ring form two circles of different sizes, that touch at the 12 o'clock position, and have a maximum separation at the 6 o'clock position. If the base ring is an oval, the distance at 6 o'clock will be a bit smaller, and the maximum gap will be more towards the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions.

    The tube diameter is pretty much fixed by the diameter of the penis, and how loose or snug you want it to be. As you have illustrated, it can be quite a bit larger than the penis, though I prefer mine to have a bit less wiggle room. Next, there is a minimum diameter for the base ring. Again, as you point out, too tight causes problems without improving security. Together, these two measurements determine what the radial component of the gap is going to be. Therefore, you don't want the diameter of the base ring to be too big, either, or your radial gap will be too big.

    Note that the total gap doesn't need to be very big, and should not be any bigger than it needs to be for a comfortable fit. If you take a nice, hot shower or bath, so that your scrotum is relaxed, you can pinch the thickness of the skin above the testicles to see what the minimum gap needs to be. It's not very much. If you need more clearance than the radial gap provides, you can start adding to the axial component.

    Notice that the interplay between the radial and axial components of the gap will also determine the direction that the gap points. Suppose that you have zero axial component, so the entrance to the tube is in the same plane as the base ring. In this case, the gap will be pointing directly forward. However, if you have a zero radial component, as when the diameter of the base ring is the same as the diameter of the tube, the gap will be determined by the axial component, and will point straight down. This will affect how the balls sit in relation to the device, but is probably not that important. Having the gap point forward does make the space between the bottom of the tube and the front of the scrotum tighter, which can trap moisture and urine. When my scrotum is loose enough, it is easy to push it down over the bottom of the base ring so that the front can be cleaned and dried. If anyone wants to do a study of different gap directions, and its impact on comfort/hygiene/security, it would be useful information to add to our knowledge base.

    There are two other considerations regarding the gap. Though all of the devices I have seen have a base ring that is flat, it is possible to have a base ring that curves backward at its lower half, which would open up the gap and make it point more downward. Also, it is convention, but not necessary, that the plane of the base ring be parallel to the plane of the tube entrance. Looking at the device from the side, it could be designed so that the axial gap is zero at the top, but have it open out as you go toward the 6 o'clock position on the base ring.

    I have seen posts where people report one of their testicles "popping out" of the device, which can only mean that the gap is too big. When I first got my MM custom device, the axial gap was almost zero, but I found that it was quite comfortable. Don't assume that a small axial gap will make the device too tight. I would suggest deciding what diameters you need for the tube and the base ring, and only enlarge the axial gap measurement if the radial component of the gap is too tight for comfortable, long term wear.
     
  4. PansyTart
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    PansyTart MsTreat's sissy bitch

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    Mark, that is a wonderful elaboration of considerations for gap measurement!

    I'll anecdotally note that my axial gap is 3/8 inch per my recommendations (and originally per Mature Metal's strong advice for a starting gap). My radial gap would be 7/8 inch if my base ring were round, but given it's oval "squish" I'm guessing the radial gap is more like 1/2 or 5/8 inch at the 6 o'clock position. The small radial gap despite my having a fairly large 2-3/8 inch base ring is due to having a larger diameter cage tube than most people would instinctively choose or recommend for the diameter of my shaft.

    The fact that my CB device stays put with only a 1/2-inch slip down range at most (3/4 inch if I pull medium hard directly away from my body and stretch out the pubis behind the base ring) is due to the overall narrow all-around radial gap. My testicles simply will not fit through any part of the gap, not even close, so they become the ultimate "door stopper" that prevents slip down even when my scrotum is warm and fully relaxed and the balls are "hanging low". Again, with other devices I've tried whose largest base ring size was much smaller (2 inches max) and whose cage tube was smaller diameter both inside (1-3/8 inch) and outside, I could easily--even inadvertently--slip my testicles through the gap. This was probably due in part to the radial gap on those actually being larger on the bottom because of the round shape of the base ring. For example, the Green's "Ringmaster"/"Jailhouse" literally fell off by itself down my pants leg once! I also had a testicle slip out of a 50mm Birdlocked, and a CB-3000 with a 1-7/8 base ring.

    The Mature Metal Jailbird? No way am I getting out of that, inadvertently or otherwise. Even if I slip my shaft out of the cage, the entire thing is literally locked on my by testicles. If MsTreat ever wanted to make the thing truly 100% inescapable (short of cutting it off), all she'd need to do is require me to wear a non-stretch harness belt attached to the center post of the base ring as I've described in posts further up in this thread.

    So hopefully all this explication (by Mark121 too) and my photos can demonstrate to readers' satisfaction that it is absolutely not the "tightness" of the base ring or of the cage tube that keeps a CB device in place and firmly locked on your anatomy. It's only the proper gap size that is needed to keep things as snug as you like and firmly locked on. If you prefer a snug, tight cage tube diameter, that's fine and it might also contribute to reducing "slip-down", but you might be trading off snugness for hygiene (especially with closed/solid tube designs), so your mileage may vary. You will also probably run into those "inchworm" dynamics I've outlined that constantly pull your glans back into the tube and wedge it there unless you go for a very short tube length to start with.

    One more plug for a shorter tube length than you might instinctively choose: If your gap is too loose and you have some significant "slip-down", or if you have a very low-hanging or elastic scrotum, a short cage tube can help maintain the appearance of your glans being firmly planted all the way in the tip end of the cage no matter what happens. Since your shaft is fairly compressed in length to begin with, if the cage slips down any, there's plenty of room for the shaft length to likewise expand a little, yet it's still compressed from its normal "hanging loose" state. However, be aware that this mechanic might be defeated if your tube diameter is too snug and/or your cage itself is too enclosed, smooth, and tubelike with a lot of friction surfaces. In this case, the end of your shaft might still get wedged slightly back in the tube per the "inchworm" mechanics. Speaking for myself, I really disliked having to constantly pull/pry/push my glans back down into the tip of the cage all the time with the other devices I tried. The Birdlocked and the CB-n000 were both really horrible in this regard, because there is so much smooth, grippy surface inside the tube.
     
  5. mobico69
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    mobico69 Long term member

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    Amazing thread PansyTart! I wish I had read this before I spent all the time/money on this Lori Device that is too long and narrow

    M
     
  6. PansyTart
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    PansyTart MsTreat's sissy bitch

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    Thanks for the kind words, Mature Metal! Still loving the Jailbird and it's been on continuously for 17 days straight since it arrived in the mail with zero fit, comfort, irritation, or hygiene problems. By the time summer comes, we'll probably order a second one that is the 1-1/2 inch length that (in hindsight) I should have ordered, and perhaps try a smaller gap for summer wearing when the grapes want to hang lower and looser. We'll keep this one as a spare and possibly as a "cold-weather" version with a slightly larger gap.
     
  7. hardbodysub
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    hardbodysub BrokeTheMold

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    I really like the measuring method PansyTart has described. It looks like a very complete, well-planned process, and the explanations are great. I'm not on the same page with him in regard to the size or shape of the ring, but I think he's done a great job with the sizing method.

    However, I strongly disagree with virtually all of the comments about "misconceptions" except #5, and even with #5, I don't entirely agree with the explanation.

    #6 - You don't need a piercing to make a trapped ball device secure. Secure doesn't have to mean "absolutely impossible" to pull out of, but just damned hard enough that you can't do it without a superhuman effort, some noticeable damage, more pain that you are willing to accept, or at least a lot of time and effort. If it takes an hour to work your way out of it, that's pretty secure.

    #5 - True, you don't NEED the cage to have a little extra length to accommodate a partial erection. But it's NOT true that if you have no extra length, the penis will merely expand in girth instead, and everything will be comfortable and all hunky-dory. That may work for PansyTart, but my own experience says that's BS. My guy tried to extend through the front, and it hurt. A little extra length made it more comfortable for me. It was tolerable, and I wouldn't recommend a lot of extra length, but for some people, a little bit might help.

    #4 - The cage doesn't need to be tight all the way around, but if it's loose enough that the glans can just slip right through the rings on the cage with no pulling (such as the stocking method), that can leave a LOT of extra space around the shaft. I had this problem with my first attempt, when I ordered a ring and cage that were too large. There was a good 3/8" of extra play between the shaft and the bars on the cage, and it could almost slip off by itself. I agree that you shouldn't need lube, and it might be OK if you can get the cage right on without the stocking method, but it should just barely get through, or the cage is liable to be too roomy. I'm actually getting to prefer it just tight enough to need a little stocking help. And I don't have any problem with being friction-bound in the pulled-back position.

    #3 - Nighttime erections shouldn't give you extreme pain or burning, and you should be able to get it to go down fairly quickly. If not, the ring and/or cage may be too tight. However, a little discomfort from the nighttime erection is not a big deal, and if your ring and cage are so large that you don't notice any discomfort at all, then it's almost certainly extremely insecure, very easy to pull out of. At least that's been my experience. My first ring and cage were comfortable all night, and an erection in the device was actually quite pleasurable. However, there was way too much room in it when I was flaccid, and it could almost come off by itself. To go small enough to get a reasonable amount of security meant less room for an erection, and a little discomfort. It's fleeting, and not a big problem.

    #2 - Wow. The experience PansyTart describes is exactly the opposite of mine. I can comfortably wear a smaller circular ring than oval ring. I have no discomfort at 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock (don't know where he came up with those) with either ring. The oval ring, because it is compressed vertically, puts more pressure on the vein on the underside of the shaft, which, when erect, makes it nearly impossible to get the erection to go down. The nighttime erections become much more painful, and very hard to relieve. I don't experience any of the problems that he describes, even though I prefer a ring that seems to be tighter than he recommends. In my opinion, if you can easily pull out the back of the ring, it IS too large.

    #1 - I disagree with the opinion that it's the gap, not the ring, that prevents slippage. It's both, and to me the ring is more important than PansyTart says.
    Depending on this to hold the cage in place is what causes discomfort, in my experience. This is where the pinching and loose skin slipping through can happen. Having the testicles pushed up tightly to the sides is not comfortable, and a too-large base ring allows the loose skin of the scrotum to slip behind it, causing more slippage and pinching. I may change my mind a little in the future as I experiment more, but my current configuration is more comfortable and secure with a tighter ring and larger gap than my original one.

    I may think a little bit about trying a shorter, wider cage, but our experiences and opinions about the base ring size and shape are very different, and the proper cage length is definitely affected by the amount of slippage.
     
  8. Cape Cod Richie
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    Cape Cod Richie Senior Member

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    This is a fantastic thread. Very timely as I'm planning on a 2nd Mature Metal device. I too, as the above poster did better with a circular ring instead of oval. I'm very compact and the Guys like to hide when it's cold. I had a Pet Trap which I loved after getting the rings and gap straightened out. Sent back 3 times; great customer service though. I ended up using a 1 13/16" round ring. This ring was secure and the smallest I could use to not lose a ball but I did burn at night occasionally.

    Unfortunately the problem with MiniMe was after the Lust had built up during a fairly long Chastity Run I managed to have an orgasm in the Trap which (to me) turned it into scrap metal. I was going to add the Anti-Pullout option but managed to sell it beforehand. I believe that extra 1/4 inch I hadn't counted on (mentioned above) and the friction of the Pet Trap enabled me to blast. Concerning tube inside diameter my width was 1 1/2" and the tube was 1 5/8". I also am uncut which MM catered to by changing the bar arrangement which worked great (he mentions this above).

    I have read posts and seen pictures by DollyAnne and Kdubb of their very small Jailbirds and have decided to go that route as they seem compact like me.

    I seem to remember just giving my measurements on the Pet Trap and getting what I got. Maybe the website was different, I don't remember. This 2nd time I will be extremely specific.

    I am currently using a CB6000S and the 2" ring and doing very well except for when the Guys want to retreat I have lost One (inside me). I sleep well all night. I have used the 1 7/8" ring and still lost One and also burned a bit at night. I use the smallest gap for either ring.

    Due to a lot of previous experience I know that 2" total is the length of the tube I need as this CB6000S is a bit long but much better than the CB3000 cage I was previously using. I have 5 different devices so there's a lot of "previous" here; years. The Pet Trap tube was supposed to be 2" but with the tip add-on of 1/4" was like a free for all for my little Joy Toy. I'm older & wiser.

    I'm going back to look at PansyTart's measuring pics and again, Thanks for all this Great Info. I cannot view his measuring Pics and I'm logged in!! Fancy site these days but I yearn for simpler days when everything worked. Typical for me, Good Grief............

    ( Oh, again I changed my avatar pic (I thought) but it's still the old one. I don't have much patience for these problems))
     
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  9. Cape Cod Richie
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    Cape Cod Richie Senior Member

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    Something I've noticed since my last post 8 days ago. I didn't know where to put this post. I've been using the 2" ring and sleeping all night and it seems like I'm stretching my scrotum more than when I used the smaller sized torturous rings. It seems backwards but it's all good. Plenty of time to experiment while I save (earn) money for my Jailbird. Thinking of getting a different 2nd ring for warmer weather as things can change a lot for compact me with the weather.

    Sorry If I'm diluting this fine thread. Just trying to help wherever I can. [​IMG]
     
  10. zflintzz
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    zflintzz New member

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    its a real shame that i cant see the pics here "PansyTart's Sizing Method (supporting photos)" gallery without paying $25. is this measuring system available in any other site or blog. it would really be helpful for guys like me who want to order their first chstity device.
     
  11. MzticStormz
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    MzticStormz Junior Member

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    VERY impressive write up PansyTart, Thank you.
     
  12. SlaveBo
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    SlaveBo I love this picture

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    I have also found this thread to be very informative and useful. Thank you pansy tart and all those others who contributed.
     
  13. Vithryld
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    Vithryld Slave

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    Thank you ever so much for creating this guide, PansyTart! I was so nervous about purchasing such a pricey product, getting it right and all that, and this did wonders to alleviate my anxiety. My Queen's Keep fits so well and is so comfortable.

    You are awesome!
     
  14. baldslave
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    baldslave New member

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    HI,
    A big thank you to PansyTart from me too! But i am still a bit confused.
    I missed the whole "bloodcock" thing. Since english is a foreign language for me, i'm not sure to correctly understand the meaning of this word.
    Can somebody be so patient and kind to explain me better what the words "...a fairly short "bloodcock" configuration" really means?

    thanyou in advance
     
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  15. Vithryld
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    Vithryld Slave

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    This has absolutely been my experience so far. I was really hoping it would be the case, which is why I poured over your guide over and over again.


    Some males' penises will grow many larger than their flaccid size, aka A Grower, or Bloodcock. Others do not grow as much, aka Shower or Meatcock. I think what the guide is saying is that you want to measure your penis for the chastity device in the most flaccid, natural state.
     
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  16. albert
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    albert New member

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    Just wanted to express a big "thanks" for this post. I just got my MM Queen's Keep today, ordered much shorter and wider than I would have had I not read this guide. Very, very comfortable, and fits me like the proverbial glove.
     
  17. dani
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    dani Member

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    I second this, my jailbird came in today and I have the same feeling exactly. I spent $700 on a Lori and got it so narrow and long that it just hasn't worked out for me. I had tried to size it to my flaccid size but not compressed in any way and with no extra diameter in the cage. I'd been looking for a replacement and after reading this guide I decided I'd give it a shot since the method I used for the Lori just caused it to push out very easily and it wasn't very comfortable. The jailbird sized according to your guide seems immensely comfortable and while I wish that it covered a lot more area (not a fan of having any access), I think the hygiene improvements will pay off for long term wear.

    I love the how short the cage is as determined by this guide!! I can't get any kind of erection at all, whereas even in the lori I was able to get somewhat of one! But with such a short cage, all I get is a bit of blood buildup just behind the ring (as you mentioned in your original post) and no real erection at all! A very new feeling for me that I love!. The only issue I have is that I tend to get an annoying amount of slide down of the device unless I have fairly tight underwear or a string/shoelace supporting. Not a big deal to me, since the same thing has happened with every device I've owned though.
     
  18. msemanuel
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    msemanuel Junior Member

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    I wanted to see how you went about taking the blood measurement. But for some reason I cant seem to see the pics Any ideas?
     
  19. ukshaver001
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    ukshaver001 Junior Member

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    ALAS - I cannot seem to get to the section with the pics.....I click and arrive back at the front page of CM.....
     
  20. Mistress Michelle
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    Mistress Michelle Magical Mistress

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    I think all the pictures didnt make it over when they changed the software for the site, I'll send a message to Admin and see if they can be retrieved. This is absolutly the best and most descriptive method for measument for Mature Metals cages.

    Mistress Michelle :spank:
     
  21. ukshaver001
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    ukshaver001 Junior Member

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    Many thanks.
    As a newbie..and currently looking into this scene more as play but MAYBE more... we are keen to learn what we can. Seen too many pics of what look like very sore men... and thats not the point. Chastity does not (in our book) mean agony
     
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  22. stang0069
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    stang0069 New member

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    has anyone seen the photos of the sizing i to would like to see them to get the right size
     
  23. Lucy
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    Lucy Lucy X

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    I totally agree with your statement I have had so ma ny devices now that I am loosing count and my Mistress Deborah has told me if it causes pain it comes off. Stick to this and you won't go wrong.
    Regards
    Slave phil
     
  24. Chretien Faatz
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    This is an excellent system for measuring but not having the lost images is more frustrating than, well, a chastity device.

    Is there any chance they can be recovered or reposted?

    Thanks!
     
  25. hollytv
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    hollytv Junior Member

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    I wondered if google still had a record of the pictures and have found one of the images. So far I've not managed, by various methods, to locate any of the others.
    I don't know how much use it will be, but here it is, presumably showing the 'bloodcock': pansytart.jpeg

    The file was called 'gallery_24057_1750_60014.jpg', I don't know if others would be able to use that to locate others.
     
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