Keep this argumentative attitude up about the number of Os you get and you'll get 0 Os permanently.
Sex Therapy?
- Thread starter OrdinaryGuy
- Start date
You could flesh these ideas out (by yourself), ensure that they are NOT turn-based, and present them. It's worth a shot. I've given that thought and I have many examples where I thought I was being innovative or compromising and ended up suggesting something the opposite of what was intended. I am very hesitant to do that again.
How did leaning on her feel to you?
Before I started doing it I resented her for making me feel that I needed to do that.
But she kept insisting and encouraging me to do it and when I gave in and actually did it, she was so supportive and caring and it was really nice and I really liked it. As a man, I've never really felt that kind of protection and safety directed my way. She literally got me through some really hard days when I was doing stretches that spanned several months. Her compassion and patience just made me feel warm and loved. Afterwards, (like when the lockup was over and I had an O or two again) I felt weak for having done that and annoyed, because like, what was all of that about? Just unnecessary hardship that I was put through because of a dumb thing we were trying.
Well, I personally want 'great.' What would move the needle to make it great? Anything? Has it ever been great, or is only, just tolerable?
That accepting stage feels calm to me. Like all those antagonistic thoughts stop presenting themselves randomly. My day-to-day is so ordinary. Work, household stuff, friends and movies. 95% of the time I'm not thinking of the cage at all. So there is a peace, but nothing so outstanding that makes it great.
My wife is amazing in those times, she dotes on me, treats me like I'm the best husband in the world. Other couples comment on how I got it so great. In the bedroom she is very active, nearly everyday (or more). I get to give her easily 6 or more Os each time. A lot of "us" time. And then at the end, I just don't have an O. And that's it for me. And it's like finishing your dessert before you've had you fill. A bit unsatisfying. But then it's okay again.
So, you feel that your wife and the therapist would push you into something you don't want just because it doesn't make you "climb he walls?".
When you say it that way, no. More like a kid that begrudgingly eats his broccoli and doesn't want to admit it isn't the worst thing in the world for fear that he's going to get more broccoli.
Is she trustworthy? CAN you trust her? How would it feel if you COULD trust her?
I now trust her intentions with chastity, I didn't before. Two things... She was figuring things out in the beginning and got some stuff wrong. Like, I wouldn't trust her to fly a plane. You need a certain proficiency.
Secondly, and with all due respect to this site, it has helped me work out my thoughts in many ways... but early on, I got some advice (I acknowledge it was well meaning) but it fed my pentiant for paranoia. And I significantly doubted her. It's the main reason we ran into problems and eventually stopped (my paranoia, not this site). We literally ended chastity when she said I was doing so great she wanted to try to give me more Os this year. And I had so many doubts, everything crumbled.
How did leaning on her feel to you?
Before I started doing it I resented her for making me feel that I needed to do that.
But she kept insisting and encouraging me to do it and when I gave in and actually did it, she was so supportive and caring and it was really nice and I really liked it. As a man, I've never really felt that kind of protection and safety directed my way. She literally got me through some really hard days when I was doing stretches that spanned several months. Her compassion and patience just made me feel warm and loved. Afterwards, (like when the lockup was over and I had an O or two again) I felt weak for having done that and annoyed, because like, what was all of that about? Just unnecessary hardship that I was put through because of a dumb thing we were trying.
Well, I personally want 'great.' What would move the needle to make it great? Anything? Has it ever been great, or is only, just tolerable?
That accepting stage feels calm to me. Like all those antagonistic thoughts stop presenting themselves randomly. My day-to-day is so ordinary. Work, household stuff, friends and movies. 95% of the time I'm not thinking of the cage at all. So there is a peace, but nothing so outstanding that makes it great.
My wife is amazing in those times, she dotes on me, treats me like I'm the best husband in the world. Other couples comment on how I got it so great. In the bedroom she is very active, nearly everyday (or more). I get to give her easily 6 or more Os each time. A lot of "us" time. And then at the end, I just don't have an O. And that's it for me. And it's like finishing your dessert before you've had you fill. A bit unsatisfying. But then it's okay again.
So, you feel that your wife and the therapist would push you into something you don't want just because it doesn't make you "climb he walls?".
When you say it that way, no. More like a kid that begrudgingly eats his broccoli and doesn't want to admit it isn't the worst thing in the world for fear that he's going to get more broccoli.
Is she trustworthy? CAN you trust her? How would it feel if you COULD trust her?
I now trust her intentions with chastity, I didn't before. Two things... She was figuring things out in the beginning and got some stuff wrong. Like, I wouldn't trust her to fly a plane. You need a certain proficiency.
Secondly, and with all due respect to this site, it has helped me work out my thoughts in many ways... but early on, I got some advice (I acknowledge it was well meaning) but it fed my pentiant for paranoia. And I significantly doubted her. It's the main reason we ran into problems and eventually stopped (my paranoia, not this site). We literally ended chastity when she said I was doing so great she wanted to try to give me more Os this year. And I had so many doubts, everything crumbled.
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Emotional protection.
Sheesh, that sounds so nice...
A biological explanation might be useful here, as that heavily influences thinking:
Women actually release oxytocin when you do this (their 'Tend-and-Befriend' response), and their high estrogen multiplies the effect.
However, because a man's baseline testosterone is so high, it actively suppresses oxytocin's ability to bring his cortisol spike down under stress.
Women will biologically crave emotional connection and vulnerability, while a man's biology prompts him to pull away or 'fix' things autonomously. Which might be how you reacted afterwards?"
Because testosterone and cortisol dominate the male stress response, men later experience something called a "vulnerability hangover", which is your biology snapping back, and you get thoughts like “meh, does she see me as weak now?". And if you have a certain level of ego and testosterone, this is going to be felt more negatively - men fear any loss of respect (which is the vastly unappreciated relationship killer for men)
I gather the therapist angle is to treat this type of connection as a pit stop, not a new reality.
The car is failing - you pull in, slap on some rubber and fill up the emotional tank with her compassion.
Vulnerability doesn't mean you are not strong; it's a tool that allows you to rest - so you can return to being strong.
You get to protect your own sense of masculine autonomy while preserving the biologically safe and deeply bonded emotions your Wife is now feeling.
Just like male fantasies are variations on a knight fighting dragons or having your head on a woman's lap...
Then, when your testosterone kicks back in, reassure her that her "tend-and-befriend" response worked great. Allowing you to pull back into your focus without making her feel pushed away...
{very important}She provides the emotional safe harbour, and you show up with active care and reliability.
Thank you for this explanation. Much of it rings true. I'll add that I really didn't want to see the therapist and now that it has become a regular thing, I'm constantly left with this entangled mess of both feeling comfort in the compassion and interest the therapist has in my struggles and wants, and also feeling like it's weird for this other woman to be doing that for me. Good, but unnatural. I would describe it like getting a back massage from your mom. If you focus on the therapy part, it feels good. Then you think, why is this person, of all people, doing that to me. It feels weird and totally inappropriate.Emotional protection.
Sheesh, that sounds so nice...
A biological explanation might be useful here, as that heavily influences thinking:
Women actually release oxytocin when you do this (their 'Tend-and-Befriend' response), and their high estrogen multiplies the effect.
However, because a man's baseline testosterone is so high, it actively suppresses oxytocin's ability to bring his cortisol spike down under stress.
Women will biologically crave emotional connection and vulnerability, while a man's biology prompts him to pull away or 'fix' things autonomously. Which might be how you reacted afterwards?"
Because testosterone and cortisol dominate the male stress response, men later experience something called a "vulnerability hangover", which is your biology snapping back, and you get thoughts like “meh, does she see me as weak now?". And if you have a certain level of ego and testosterone, this is going to be felt more negatively - men fear any loss of respect (which is the vastly unappreciated relationship killer for men)
I gather the therapist angle is to treat this type of connection as a pit stop, not a new reality.
The car is failing - you pull in, slap on some rubber and fill up the emotional tank with her compassion.
Vulnerability doesn't mean you are not strong; it's a tool that allows you to rest - so you can return to being strong.
You get to protect your own sense of masculine autonomy while preserving the biologically safe and deeply bonded emotions your Wife is now feeling.
Just like male fantasies are variations on a knight fighting dragons or having your head on a woman's lap...
Then, when your testosterone kicks back in, reassure her that her "tend-and-befriend" response worked great. Allowing you to pull back into your focus without making her feel pushed away...
She provides the emotional safe harbour, and you show up with active care and reliability.
So I've been asked back to the next therapy session on Monday. My wife and the therapist have been meeting privately at the therapist's request for 5 or 6 sessions now. I'm not really sure what I'm in for.
I did ask my wife what they have been talking about all this time and she said those sessions are supposed to be private ways to deal with stuff. I reminded her that the 2nd part was that it is so we can then later talk about it after we've personally reflected with the help of the therapist. And she said that's why I'm joining them again tomorrow.
So hopefully everything is okay now. I'm trying not to get too anxious about it and overthink the situation.
I did ask my wife what they have been talking about all this time and she said those sessions are supposed to be private ways to deal with stuff. I reminded her that the 2nd part was that it is so we can then later talk about it after we've personally reflected with the help of the therapist. And she said that's why I'm joining them again tomorrow.
So hopefully everything is okay now. I'm trying not to get too anxious about it and overthink the situation.
Your wife clearly loves you a whole hell of a lot.
Whatever she and the therapist suggest, my advice is go with it. Let go of your pride and ego.
Be who they want you to be.
Life is too short.
Love with your whole heart.
I’m going to say a few things that I genuinely think might help.
Firstly, learn to move her, or move yourself, naturally onto the next thing in bed. You don’t need to say, “It’s your turn,” especially when you’ve already given her a lot of pleasure. Learning to move between things without having to verbalise every transition might take some of the awkwardness and pressure out of it for her. Ideally, you both learn to read each other and naturally move things along without needing to announce what happens next.
Secondly, I don’t think you’re submissive, and I don’t think chastity is something you genuinely want for yourself. If the situation were reversed and a group of women were trying to convince a wife to perform a husband’s particular sexual preference, I think it’s quite possible the conversation would eventually become, “He’s allowed to want what he wants, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to do it,” and then it would probably become something they could laugh about.
I also don’t get the impression that your wife is naturally dominant, or that she gets much out of the power exchange itself. If she doesn’t enjoy the dynamic, the kink, or the feeling of having that power, then I don’t think you can really make that particular dynamic work just by trying harder.
Thirdly, and I say this with a lot of love, have you ever been assessed for autism? You seem to miss quite a lot of what is being communicated sometimes. You can become very focused on intent and on your own interpretation of things, and I’ve noticed that the communication difficulties seem to come from your side fairly often too.
My husband was diagnosed after 25 years together, and honestly, it explained a lot of things that had previously been very difficult for us to understand. It hasn’t magically fixed everything, but having that framework has helped me understand him and the way he communicates much better.
Regardless. Chastity isn't for you two, and thats ok. Its probably more general sex therapy and you controlling your behavior that will make a difference in the way your wife experiences you.
Firstly, learn to move her, or move yourself, naturally onto the next thing in bed. You don’t need to say, “It’s your turn,” especially when you’ve already given her a lot of pleasure. Learning to move between things without having to verbalise every transition might take some of the awkwardness and pressure out of it for her. Ideally, you both learn to read each other and naturally move things along without needing to announce what happens next.
Secondly, I don’t think you’re submissive, and I don’t think chastity is something you genuinely want for yourself. If the situation were reversed and a group of women were trying to convince a wife to perform a husband’s particular sexual preference, I think it’s quite possible the conversation would eventually become, “He’s allowed to want what he wants, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to do it,” and then it would probably become something they could laugh about.
I also don’t get the impression that your wife is naturally dominant, or that she gets much out of the power exchange itself. If she doesn’t enjoy the dynamic, the kink, or the feeling of having that power, then I don’t think you can really make that particular dynamic work just by trying harder.
Thirdly, and I say this with a lot of love, have you ever been assessed for autism? You seem to miss quite a lot of what is being communicated sometimes. You can become very focused on intent and on your own interpretation of things, and I’ve noticed that the communication difficulties seem to come from your side fairly often too.
My husband was diagnosed after 25 years together, and honestly, it explained a lot of things that had previously been very difficult for us to understand. It hasn’t magically fixed everything, but having that framework has helped me understand him and the way he communicates much better.
Regardless. Chastity isn't for you two, and thats ok. Its probably more general sex therapy and you controlling your behavior that will make a difference in the way your wife experiences you.
My wife has always wanted chastity more than I did. I didn't think I was submissive and while I now know that I can be submissive, I don't think that is my "natural" state. What I have learned from her guidance and control is that I can truly enjoy being submissive, despite many of the same concerns you mention (post O drops, anxiety, etc.). I am not sure if my wife has read me better than your wife has read you, or if the way we built up longer and longer was different enough that each time she pushed further I was ready for it. What I do know is that there is no way she could be happy if I called an end to this now.
Of course you are a different person and maybe could never get over your concerns with longer term lockups. But reading your comments my gut tells me that it should be possible to work back into it, giving her true control but her taking it very slowly, making it fun, and helping you through your hurdles until you both achieve longer term lockups AND you find greater happiness in submission. Since she wants this more than you the burden is on her to do it slowly enough, listen to your feedback and exercise her power irresistibly until you willingly submit more. It is a process, not a destination. And it requires you truly grant her control, her using it ever so carefully, you providing accurate feedback on what works and what does not (not trying to sabotage anything) and her using that feedback to be so amazing that you laugh at some of the things you currently view as boundaries.
I can only unpack what I know and suggest how that might apply to you. I will add that in our first year I remember saying "If you think I am one of those guys that can go weeks, or even a month, without an O you are out of your mind...". Now I go many months yet am happier than ever, and all because she knows how to play my mind (but I take my responsibility to give her feedback on what "works" seriously - I want her to be successful).
Curious what the therapist says tomorrow.
Wishing you both great progress.
Of course you are a different person and maybe could never get over your concerns with longer term lockups. But reading your comments my gut tells me that it should be possible to work back into it, giving her true control but her taking it very slowly, making it fun, and helping you through your hurdles until you both achieve longer term lockups AND you find greater happiness in submission. Since she wants this more than you the burden is on her to do it slowly enough, listen to your feedback and exercise her power irresistibly until you willingly submit more. It is a process, not a destination. And it requires you truly grant her control, her using it ever so carefully, you providing accurate feedback on what works and what does not (not trying to sabotage anything) and her using that feedback to be so amazing that you laugh at some of the things you currently view as boundaries.
I can only unpack what I know and suggest how that might apply to you. I will add that in our first year I remember saying "If you think I am one of those guys that can go weeks, or even a month, without an O you are out of your mind...". Now I go many months yet am happier than ever, and all because she knows how to play my mind (but I take my responsibility to give her feedback on what "works" seriously - I want her to be successful).
Curious what the therapist says tomorrow.
Wishing you both great progress.
We are slowly getting an idea behind the real issues.
One possible middle ground is for her to accept that it is normal for a man to want to ejaculate. That desire when combined with him having fewer ejaculations, is what powers many chastity (honour method as well as cage) dynamics. This website often focusses on long term chastity where he gives up on wanting to ejaculate. But my guess is that more couples play with this dynamic with shorter bursts, and thus him still wanting to cum is a fun part of it.
As others have said there are some other techniques which can be considered where the man doesn't ejaculate very often. There is an ancient Taoist practice where HE decides to have far fewer ejaculations and he uses the Taoist techniques to learn to calm his energy. This is now included in some neo-tantra.
I think another key issue for you is that you have a transactional approach to sex. That's much better than just being selfish, but it is missing out on the deeper connection and enjoyment of sex which is possible when you enjoy giving pleasure as much as receiving it.
Many women love the dynamic of having a man who really loves giving her oral so much that it is pleasing him to allow him to do it. Him being hungry for her has a very different and much sexier feel for her than him doing it for her so that he can get his turn next.
If you give her control, and agree to only ejaculate say every two weeks, then if most of the activity is giving her oral, over time you are likely to start liking it more and more until you get to the stage of wanting it to happen more often than it does. That you still really want to ejaculate afterwards, but keep you commitment not to, is showing her your Devotion. Given your chastity experience, you might be happy to have even fewer ejaculations.
With my sex life for the last 25 years an important part of it has been that after I give her oral and an orgasm, and she decides no more will happen, she we have a cuddle and she holds my erection. So FOR ME not wearing a cage most of the time we are in bed is essential.
Of course a cage helps a man not play with himself and to not ejaculate if he doesn't have the self-control to do this without a cage. And the very special thing for her is that him always wearing a cage when he is clothed means that his erections only happen when with her. Perhaps her taking the cage off a few times each week just to hold your erection after her orgasms would make doing chastity for her much easier.
So the win-win is if you can come up with something where you tell her that you are happy to only ejaculate every XXX, and you want to give her control of what sex happens, but feel that you need XXXX for this to work for you. Tell her that you want to change how you think and feel about pleasuring her so that you start to enjoy doing this as much as she enjoys receiving it. That you want to use your energy from far fewer ejaculations to increase your desire so that you are always eager to give her pleasure. And that if she can help you change your thinking this way that you will enjoy your sex life as much as her.
Her saying that you want so much of what she wants will be magic. And hopefully she will be more open to negotiating whatever the XXXX is that you feel will make doing this a great experience for you too.
I hope most of this makes sense. And of course these are only my thoughts.
One possible middle ground is for her to accept that it is normal for a man to want to ejaculate. That desire when combined with him having fewer ejaculations, is what powers many chastity (honour method as well as cage) dynamics. This website often focusses on long term chastity where he gives up on wanting to ejaculate. But my guess is that more couples play with this dynamic with shorter bursts, and thus him still wanting to cum is a fun part of it.
As others have said there are some other techniques which can be considered where the man doesn't ejaculate very often. There is an ancient Taoist practice where HE decides to have far fewer ejaculations and he uses the Taoist techniques to learn to calm his energy. This is now included in some neo-tantra.
I think another key issue for you is that you have a transactional approach to sex. That's much better than just being selfish, but it is missing out on the deeper connection and enjoyment of sex which is possible when you enjoy giving pleasure as much as receiving it.
Many women love the dynamic of having a man who really loves giving her oral so much that it is pleasing him to allow him to do it. Him being hungry for her has a very different and much sexier feel for her than him doing it for her so that he can get his turn next.
If you give her control, and agree to only ejaculate say every two weeks, then if most of the activity is giving her oral, over time you are likely to start liking it more and more until you get to the stage of wanting it to happen more often than it does. That you still really want to ejaculate afterwards, but keep you commitment not to, is showing her your Devotion. Given your chastity experience, you might be happy to have even fewer ejaculations.
With my sex life for the last 25 years an important part of it has been that after I give her oral and an orgasm, and she decides no more will happen, she we have a cuddle and she holds my erection. So FOR ME not wearing a cage most of the time we are in bed is essential.
Of course a cage helps a man not play with himself and to not ejaculate if he doesn't have the self-control to do this without a cage. And the very special thing for her is that him always wearing a cage when he is clothed means that his erections only happen when with her. Perhaps her taking the cage off a few times each week just to hold your erection after her orgasms would make doing chastity for her much easier.
So the win-win is if you can come up with something where you tell her that you are happy to only ejaculate every XXX, and you want to give her control of what sex happens, but feel that you need XXXX for this to work for you. Tell her that you want to change how you think and feel about pleasuring her so that you start to enjoy doing this as much as she enjoys receiving it. That you want to use your energy from far fewer ejaculations to increase your desire so that you are always eager to give her pleasure. And that if she can help you change your thinking this way that you will enjoy your sex life as much as her.
Her saying that you want so much of what she wants will be magic. And hopefully she will be more open to negotiating whatever the XXXX is that you feel will make doing this a great experience for you too.
I hope most of this makes sense. And of course these are only my thoughts.
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. The session on Monday was weird, everyone walked on egg shells. There was clearly a lot the two of them discussed about me. I don't even know if I can remember all the details.
* There were a bunch of times when they gave each other looks or said to the other, are you going to say the first or the second thing we talked about? And don't forget the other thing... And we said we were going to cover that later.. Things like that. Sometimes it made me feel ganged up on, other times it was clear the two of them didn't see eye-to-eye.
* So (and this is my wife's personality presenting here, I'm sure) the therapist said we want to try some things to move us forward, it's been a lot of talking and we want to propose some actual movement.
* My wife was very nervous. I'm sure I was too. The therapist said that we want to focus on what works and temporarily exclude what doesn't. She asked what I thought about establishing regular, nightly intamacy again, but exclude the Os. For a short while. Just for now. Just so we can reconnect with one another and then talk about the differences, if any, with her (the therapist). To be fair, it hasn't occurred to me that the therapist never saw that dynamic while it was happening.
* I said I miss being intimate with my wife and would gladly want to resume that again. I asked if they meant exclude all the Os for both of us, or just mine. The therapist said the goal is for more mutuality and shared connection and that might include for both. And my wife and her exchanged looks and my wife said, or, at my option (meaning me, the person posting this), I could just hold off on mine for awhile. But she said that was my option.
* I asked for how long and the answer was that they didn't think communicating an end date would be beneficial. It would be short term, if I agree, but they didn't want to establish a countdown clock in my mind.
* I asked, and no cage would be involved.
* I asked what would we even do if neither of us had an O? Neither of us like teasing. (We tried doing that to my wife once some time ago and she hated it). And I also prefer to avoid that because it drives me crazy. So if neither of us are having an O, I really don't understand how it would work in practice. The therapist said some things, but none of that seemed anything close to sex to me.
* Then we talked together about it and then the last few minutes it was just the therapist and me without my wife to see how I felt. I basically said it seems like a test to see if I'll do chastity again. Rather than say no, she asked if I would be open to hearing more about that with my wife, with some changes and guided discussions with her (the therapist). I asked if she thinks this is mandatory in my wife's opinion and she said chastity will always be your (my) choice, but it is clear that my wife feels the situation is very impactful to the relationship.
* I told the therapist I would try it and she asked that I meet her for another one-on-one at the beginning of next session and then my wife will join and we can go over some more details on the arrangement.
* There were a bunch of times when they gave each other looks or said to the other, are you going to say the first or the second thing we talked about? And don't forget the other thing... And we said we were going to cover that later.. Things like that. Sometimes it made me feel ganged up on, other times it was clear the two of them didn't see eye-to-eye.
* So (and this is my wife's personality presenting here, I'm sure) the therapist said we want to try some things to move us forward, it's been a lot of talking and we want to propose some actual movement.
* My wife was very nervous. I'm sure I was too. The therapist said that we want to focus on what works and temporarily exclude what doesn't. She asked what I thought about establishing regular, nightly intamacy again, but exclude the Os. For a short while. Just for now. Just so we can reconnect with one another and then talk about the differences, if any, with her (the therapist). To be fair, it hasn't occurred to me that the therapist never saw that dynamic while it was happening.
* I said I miss being intimate with my wife and would gladly want to resume that again. I asked if they meant exclude all the Os for both of us, or just mine. The therapist said the goal is for more mutuality and shared connection and that might include for both. And my wife and her exchanged looks and my wife said, or, at my option (meaning me, the person posting this), I could just hold off on mine for awhile. But she said that was my option.
* I asked for how long and the answer was that they didn't think communicating an end date would be beneficial. It would be short term, if I agree, but they didn't want to establish a countdown clock in my mind.
* I asked, and no cage would be involved.
* I asked what would we even do if neither of us had an O? Neither of us like teasing. (We tried doing that to my wife once some time ago and she hated it). And I also prefer to avoid that because it drives me crazy. So if neither of us are having an O, I really don't understand how it would work in practice. The therapist said some things, but none of that seemed anything close to sex to me.
* Then we talked together about it and then the last few minutes it was just the therapist and me without my wife to see how I felt. I basically said it seems like a test to see if I'll do chastity again. Rather than say no, she asked if I would be open to hearing more about that with my wife, with some changes and guided discussions with her (the therapist). I asked if she thinks this is mandatory in my wife's opinion and she said chastity will always be your (my) choice, but it is clear that my wife feels the situation is very impactful to the relationship.
* I told the therapist I would try it and she asked that I meet her for another one-on-one at the beginning of next session and then my wife will join and we can go over some more details on the arrangement.
I almost forgot, so at one point I asked if a "short while" meant less than a month or more and the therapist quickly said definitely less than a month and my wife got annoyed and said she doesn't think I should be focused on time and the therapist said it was a fair question and important to set boundaries before accepting something and my wife said it just focuses his attention on the absolute wrong thing. And then we moved on.
I feel this kind of inversion analogy is a bit asymmetrical? As it's partly leveraging that society is conditioned to protect women from sexual pressure, to obtain agreement.
Yes you are correct there is Equality of Consent, which was your real intent I think? - it's his body, he has no obligation to do this. But there is no Equality of Desire, which is where the comparison feels uncomfy to me, male and female boundaries are different. It's laying a rigid framework over an unequal. dynamic. Yes you are correct that ethically, autonomy tops relational preference, but for the marriage to survive, sacrificing to meet her changing emotional needs could be made to work.
Yes, agreed he's not submissive nor does he "want" chastity, but I don't feel that's the point? He isn't being made to fulfil her kink, he's being asked to consider a tool that gets him from orgasm counting to relational focus
"Eat your peas. I know you don't like them, but they are better for you than the chicken nuggets you love. No I don't want to watch you eat them slowly one by one accompanied by sexy saxophone music, I just want you to be healthy..."
It does all make it so much harder on him to not have the 'mental kink vocabulary' to frame all of this as therapeutic architecture.
Agree on a neurodivergence angle, it would change a lot if that was a factor and would explain why chastity as a proxy for her needs isn't settling (and I can only conceptualise this as a technical problem, as it's really hard for me too)
Without understanding the abstract "why" behind the request, it'll feel like arbitrary control to him. Equally, outsourcing his sexual focus removes the constant mental background noise of chasing immediate gratification. The "Burden of Choice"
It makes sense to assess this possibility as a priority.
Yes you are being managed here, lol, or rather your anxieties are. Your Wife has her solution, the diplomat-cum-therapist sees that you aren't grasping the relational concept yet (because it's hard), so everyone is going to struggle moving forward.
So it sounds like she wants to try Sensate Focus again and maybe coach your Wife on how to play this out, rather than dump you back into chastity only for it to not settle again.
Your wife is correct according to her aims. When you ask for a deadline, you are signalling that you aren't interested in the emotional shift she is craving; you just wanted to know how long you'd have to wait until she gets over it. It's your safe transactional worldview again. The internal sighs were probably audible...
I believe you might just have to step into the experience again rather than try to understand what relational concepts will mean? - to see what then happens with your Wife (and hopefully the therapist can coach her though it this time) - and then think it back from there, rather than imagine it in abstract terms from the start line.
I kinda need to know if the therapist or your Wife are considering the semi/ruined orgasms as a way to manage a future chastity trial. I've been thinking about it and I can't see how else this would work? I feel you really must have a solid way to cut off the orgasm counting, and your Wife needs to learn how to anticipate your biological need so she can head it off and refocus it back on her again. It'll force the emotional shift she wants back under her stewardship. Relying purely on full denial again, still hoping it'll manifest some kind of empathy revelation in the future, feels a bit remote.
I don't really want to suggest trying it otherwise
I always feel awkward talking about this, like what do I know?
I appreciate what you’re saying, and I think we’re actually trying to get at something quite similar, although perhaps from slightly different angles.
He has every right to decide that he doesn't want to participate in something, even if his wife believes it would help their relationship. But I don't think autonomy can be completely separated from the relational consequences of that choice.
If he doesn't want to participate in something that his wife believes is necessary for her to feel sexually connected to him, that's his right. But she also has the right to say, “Without the conditions that allow me to feel desire and intimacy with you, I may no longer want to be intimate with you.”
And I think that's really the crux of where the OP is at. I don't read her as trying to establish that he owes her this particular sexual practice. I read her as trying to save her marriage and recover a form of intimacy that she no longer naturally feels.
That's why I think the focus on whether he has an obligation to do it somewhat misses the bigger issue.
He can ultimately say no. But she can also ultimately say, “Then I don't know how to enjoy our sex life.” Both of those positions can exist simultaneously without either person's autonomy being violated.
Yeh, reasonable.
I'd also agree with this observation: "I also don’t get the impression that your wife is naturally dominant, or that she gets much out of the power exchange itself.".
But then I also don't feel those aspects will be required either?
So it sounds a bit strange for me to suggest "try this kink, but ignore all the kink aspects" - and it's because I feel that it's the pragmatic denial that's going to be doing all the heavy lifting.
Yes, 'general sex therapy and him controlling his behavior' could get him there too, and that's obviously the normal sane route, but that requires some self reflection and understanding of how he's reacting and what is expected etc - and isn't all that kinda hard work? (...I'd hate talking about my feelings for hours)
...With chastity being the blunt hammer tool that gets him there in a few weeks, and one his Wife is already invested in
He's not lacking a desire to fix this, just sounds a bit lost? Trusting (both of them...) to make this all of this work sounds like it's making him anxious
It's also hard for me to be objective here (and hopefully not be making too many assumptions either), because this is so much easier to accept when you find it even slightly kinky,
but if I were him I'd really want to secure this marriage too and just run with the solution being offered
Actually, if she's had 6 sessions privately, and chastity is still being brought up as the "tentative" option - then it looks like the therapist is done fighting her over it and is simply looking for how best to make it work for the OP instead
I'd also agree with this observation: "I also don’t get the impression that your wife is naturally dominant, or that she gets much out of the power exchange itself.".
But then I also don't feel those aspects will be required either?
So it sounds a bit strange for me to suggest "try this kink, but ignore all the kink aspects" - and it's because I feel that it's the pragmatic denial that's going to be doing all the heavy lifting.
Yes, 'general sex therapy and him controlling his behavior' could get him there too, and that's obviously the normal sane route, but that requires some self reflection and understanding of how he's reacting and what is expected etc - and isn't all that kinda hard work? (...I'd hate talking about my feelings for hours)
...With chastity being the blunt hammer tool that gets him there in a few weeks, and one his Wife is already invested in
He's not lacking a desire to fix this, just sounds a bit lost? Trusting (both of them...) to make this all of this work sounds like it's making him anxious
It's also hard for me to be objective here (and hopefully not be making too many assumptions either), because this is so much easier to accept when you find it even slightly kinky,
but if I were him I'd really want to secure this marriage too and just run with the solution being offered
Actually, if she's had 6 sessions privately, and chastity is still being brought up as the "tentative" option - then it looks like the therapist is done fighting her over it and is simply looking for how best to make it work for the OP instead
As well as your seeing sex as transactional (I'll please you if you please me), it seems that you see the purpose of sex to have an orgasm.
If that is the case, then surely the best form of sex would be masturbation. You can have an O whenever you want, and just some quick play and you are there.
The opposite view is that the best sex is you both enjoying what is happening, be you the giver or receiver, and for you both to enjoy the journey. Rather than orgasm being the purpose it is just a nice bonus at the end. Many women enjoy a great sex life without wanting, or being able, to have an orgasm each time. And with Tao/Tantra the man decides that he won't ejaculate most of the time because this gives him a much better sex and intimate life.
I gotta ask this, why the hell is he counting freaking orgasms?
What good is that? Are you afraid you'll be "cheated" out of your orgasms?
My greatest pleasure is to give my lover an orgasm. If I don't cum that's FINE. Sure eventually I want to cum but I sure as hell don't mind if it's uneven numbers.
What good is that? Are you afraid you'll be "cheated" out of your orgasms?
My greatest pleasure is to give my lover an orgasm. If I don't cum that's FINE. Sure eventually I want to cum but I sure as hell don't mind if it's uneven numbers.
I think you two might benefit from continuous short term lockups that are based on agreed upon daily behavior requirements.
Simple approach every day she agrees you behaved up to your joint standards you get one Six sided dice roll. On roll of a 1 or a 2 (1 in 3 odds), you are released from chastity for an orgasm and then you immediately re-lock. Fail to behave and you lose your opportunity to roll.
In short you’re incentivized for good behavior. You on average will have fairly frequent releases (with good behavior) but you will be in your device every day.
I would suggest she should also be able to release you for sex with her anytime she wants to.
I dunno, this is a huge stage in therapy for the couple in question and it seems like progress is being made. Working together with someone to try and find a common ground where they can really see if chastity, denial or devotional sex can truly work for them after their previous experiences. Seems like a giant fuck up waiting to happen to trust that on a dice roll.
Not crapping over the idea in general, sounds like fun to me. I just don’t think it’s the right approach for OP.
Actually, (fun or not), it's science. Rewards for desired behavior are significantly more effective on People (and other intelligent animals then rewarding every time), the system is called Intermittent Reinforcement. The only way to produce a more effective result in behavior is a reward system based on Variable Ratio Reinforcement Schedule combined with Unpredictable Rewards (That's what Las Vegas uses to keep gambler at the slot machines).
She wants better behavior, he wants to avoid being in long term chastity of an undetermined length. The therapist can assist by doing a little homework on Intermittent Reinforcement Reward Systems, and assisting the couple on negotiating the behavior goals so that they are reasonable and agreeable to both partners.
Science is fab. But your reasonings are based on the cornerstones of Pavlovian conditioning. And conditioning is the act of shaping something. I don’t think that’s helpful for this couple.
Men tend to love games of chance, and when they suggest a contract/agreement they often include this sort of thing.
For most women this over complicates things and takes away their control.
So much better to just give her control, with better behaviour having shorter lock-ups as the incentive.
But in this case we know far far less than all of those involved, so lets see if the therapist can come up with something they are both willing to try, and then see how this goes.
Men and women love endorphins from many sources.
You’re with the majority. However, I think most of you are not offering him any help based on his obvious frustration with the process. His wife has very strong opinions on what works. He clearly rejects her methods. He appears to have no answers of his own. It’s entirely possible the therapist has none either. I have offered him something he can choose (or not) to bring to the table.
You’re both entitled to your opinions.