The Phrase "Topping from the Bottom" is Bulls**t

Discussion in 'Female led relationships' started by Living Curious, Jan 1, 2018.

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  1. Living Curious
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    Living Curious Long-term lockee

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    This is copied from my blog, something I wrote a few months ago. I recognize that chastity and a narrow definition of FLR often go hand in hand so what I'm attempting to achieve with posting this is to acknowledge those who have a broader understanding of the depths and variations of D/s.

    I don't know why this notion that FLR has "one true way" is still being perpetuated. In the larger BDSM community this narrow defining of D/s was dispensed with long ago.

    I rarely make "formal declarations," indeed, about most things I am certainly ambivalent, but when it comes to this ridiculous phrase I have a strong opinion. I know saying this won't make me many friends but I think it's worth it to validate the experiences of the vast majority of those in FLR who have struggled with how to define their roles in a way that works for them and suggest a stumbling block that may be a culprit.

    So, without further ado:


    Honest and thorough communication is the bedrock of BDSM and being afraid of 'topping from the bottom' or accusing someone of doing so are not conducive to a healthy and happy relationship.

    Topping from the bottom is a phrase that gets tossed around in many different situations and for many different reasons. Critics of the phrase point out that it is often used as a means of silencing a submissive or bottom in an unhealthy way which is true. I've also heard bottoms or submissives express that they don't wish to communicate something to their top or dominant because they don't want to top from the bottom. In both of these scenarios communication is being thwarted.

    However, just on the face of it, one cannot top from the bottom simply by communicating. In the context of BDSM, the roles of top and bottom denote physical action so in order to top from the bottom there must be physical action. One cannot top from the bottom by communicating because communicating is not physical action. (Unless you try to get unnecessarily and counter-productively technical.) In the BDSM realm, action follows negotiation, which means action follows communication, therefore communication in and of itself is not action.

    I believe the phrase was born of a very narrow understanding or interpretation of D/s, one in which there are explicit roles that have been negotiated and are understood and agreed to by both partners, and in which the dominant is always the top and the submissive is always the bottom. According to Google, explicit is defined: "stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."

    It's important to understand what a top is and what a bottom is. The best definition of a top is 'one who acts' and a bottom is 'one who is acted upon.' A good example is that for gay men the top is the one who penetrates and the bottom is the one who is penetrated. Spoiler alert, this is different than a dominant and a submissive.

    Traditionally, the one who penetrates is the dominant partner and retains power. They are the one acting and therefore have control, whereas the one being penetrated is the submissive partner and is not acting, only receiving the action and therefore has relinquished power and control.

    In this sense, top=dominant=one who acts and bottom=submissive=one who is acted upon. Assuming the above scenario is the case, these roles must be explicit, negotiated, understood, and agreed to.

    In the case of the kind of D/s relationship described above, then if the submissive does something out of line of the negotiated roles with the intent of affecting change or controlling the dominant or situation, then that is topping from the bottom. The key here is "does something with intent."

    If you are a submissive, have done something which falls outside the scope of your agreed to role, and have done so with the intention of retaining power which you've agreed to relinquish or with the intention of taking control of that which you have agreed would be controlled by the dominant, then congratulations, you have just topped from the bottom.

    If you are a submissive but have not taken action with intent, then you have not topped from the bottom.

    Again, in order for topping from the bottom to even be possible, the relationship must be top=dominant=one who acts and bottom=submissive=one who is acted upon and communication or negotiation does not equal action.

    Think back to all the people you have ever met in the kink/BDSM community. How many have ever met such a strict definition of D/s? How many had such explicit roles?

    Now think back to how many times you've heard the phrase 'top from the bottom' either outside such a strict definition of D/s or in response to communication and not action.

    So, why the fuck do people use the phrase? It seems almost entirely meaningless and very nearly never applicable.

    I'll tell you why. Because almost never in a relationship is it always top=dominant and bottom=submissive, because roles aren't explicit but evolve because actions take on new meanings depending on context, communication is difficult and sometimes painful, life is messy, and sexuality and how we relate to it is complicated. The phrase is used as a shortcut or it's meant to circumvent the ongoing negotiation that is required in any healthy relationship. This happens on both sides of the slash.

    Remember what Google said about explicit? "Stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt." Negotiating explicit roles sounds really difficult, bordering on impossible, but it is possible and some people do commit themselves to such a relationship. Also, it is possible to structure a relationship such that it is agreed that further negotiation = action and so it would be possible to top from the bottom simply by communicating. For most relationships, having explicit roles with no further negotiation allowed has disastrous consequences or at least is unsustainable because people change. Negotiation and communication is inevitable, even if the communication happens in the form of the relationship falling apart.

    Buddhists believe that one of the characteristics of existence is annica or the concept of impermanence. Stated simply, nothing is forever. This would lead me to believe that it is natural for roles to change and evolve and stifling that is not healthy. Limiting communication by negotiating it out of a relationship is not healthy. So it makes sense that a healthy relationship makes allowances for change and this necessitates communication.

    Topping from the bottom by simply communicating is a thing, but only in an unhealthy relationship. So, my fellow kinksters, the phrase topping from the bottom is bullshit and perpetuating it, and the kind of relationship it implies, does no one any favors.
     
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  2. Mr M
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    Mr M Find yourself, find peace; find others, find joy.

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    I am guessing you are a lawyer.
     
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  3. Living Curious
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    Living Curious Long-term lockee

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    .........I'm not sure if that's a compliment, but to come to that conclusion I'm guessing you at least read my post. Which is cool.

    And I think my coworkers would get a kick out of someone thinking I'm a lawyer, so that's cool, too.
     
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  4. Nicoftime
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    Nicoftime The suspense is terrible...I hope it lasts

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    I have said this before but I find that topping from the bottom is real but some have different perspectives.

    I think if you are dictating what you expect, what your domme should do, how they should do it and when...I’m not sure why you feel you need a domme, your doing fine by yourself.

    But if you inform your domme what you like, and what would work, you are just giving information and that can be used or discarded as they see fit.
     
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  5. filltee
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    filltee Junior Member

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    Topping from the bottom which really does exist few would doubt it, even if its only an experienced wearer guiding a new KH into the role.

    An easy way to prevent undue interference it is to have pre-arranged discussion about TTTWD during the initial settling into of roles by both parties. These discussion periods can be reduced over time as they hopefully become less necessary and probably coincide with the setting out of the iniital rules if you feel you need them.
    Perhaps at the handing over of the last key or some other significant milestone once everything is established and is up and running and if requests being made are not overbearing then perhaps it would be ok to relax communicate and and only bring uo things when needed, with perhaps a quarterly or half year review to ensure that you are communicating fully.

    Not all will need these tips but they might help someone or provoke thought.
    Communication is everything but like all things there is perhaps a time and place for it.
     
  6. demale
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    demale Long term member

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    My wife always is on top. I would never know otherwise. When her strapon is 10 inches deep in your submissive ass, you're a bottom. Define it as you will.
     
  7. Mandynjack
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    Mandynjack Long term member

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    Snipped

    Strong opinion and what's wrong with that I say! However, I will surmise that you are a cagee with a lot of BDSM experience and have absorbed much through associating with hard players. For the vast majority, T from the B is mainstay. Perpetuated by the male guiding/suggesting/creating s/D scenarios to be played out at some stage. If it's really lucky, its Mistress/Wife etc will eventually do things intuitively, but not as often that would dispel T from the B! In my domain, T from the B does not exist. I am very dominant, cruel at times, entitled and selfish. I also love my husband more than another cock I have used.
     
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  8. Ilikebond
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    Ilikebond Long term member

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    My wife and I had this discussion. Because sometimes I feel like I’m topping from the bottom. I wanted her to be more assertive. I buy most of the toys and got her to lock me up initially. I also tell her what I like for her to do to me.

    During one discussion, not during a lockup time, she told me to strip and get the bed ready. I laid out the stuff and cuffed my ankles and knees as she likes me to do for her. She secured my wrists and then tightened everything so I was spread eagle and couldn’t move. She asked if I was topping, I said no.

    She gagged and blindfolded me and then whipped the shit out of me. Way past my limits. She asked are you dominant? I was shaking my head hell no.

    She then attached the tens unit on my balls and penis and went at me really high, up and down for about ten minutes. I was rung out.

    She then said, we both know who has the control.


    She left me tied for about an hour then came back and put the cage on me. That slave cycle she was really harsh. I don’t bring up the topping from the bottom anymore.
     
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  9. Mandynjack
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    Mandynjack Long term member

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    Ok, I've had a few more days to think about your thread and would like to offer this;
    Your views on communicating are spot on, all great D/s, FLR. BDSM etc relationships thrive on great communication channels. But I think your broad brush view on T from B are too generalised. There comes a time in a good relationship in our LS, where a power exchange should take place IMHO. Where the female no longer relies on the male for his direction on how to stimulate and furnish his kink. She has engaged fully in the LS and through her own intuition, can maintain the D/s dynamic. Where i think I would have an ongoing problem, is where this power exchange has not occurred and in essence the female is being continually coerced to furnish the male's needs for domination, but it's not really her thing. And at some stage, tension persists around this. If this scenario of T from B does persist, generally the relationship founders somewhere. So I would say that is almost of these types of D/s lifestyles, a portion of T from B exists. It's really more about how this is maintained. Good posting BTW, initially it wound me up, but I do get your point.
     
  10. DamItDaniel
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    DamItDaniel Member

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    Im honestly not sure how I feel about this but I would like to add that I had never thought about topping from the bottom until I joined these forums and started reading others thoughts on the subject. Trying to remove topping from the bottom from my wife and I's relationship has definitely helped her become more dominant. She expressed to me many times before we started chastity that she wanted to be more dominant in our relationship and as she has come into herself our relationship is better than ever. If I had continued "topping from the bottom" I don't think that ever would have been achieved, even with chastity. We still communicate and I give her ideas when asked but try not to coerce her into anything I want. Several times I have allowed her to push me past what I thought my limits where, such as drinking her piss or swallow my cum. By allowing it to be her fantasy, not mine, we are both happier in our sex life and relationship. Now I feel I even miss out when not told to drink her piss because of the intense feeling of submission that comes with it (and it doesn't taste near as bad as I thought it would). I don't know if it's bull excrement or not but thinking of it as being a problem definitely helped me.
     
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