How to proceed with indifferent wife?

[DevotionalSex]

Eager males can sometimes treat their partners as children when it comes to giving her control. You tell her something she can have happen. She doesn't do it. So another time you tell her again. She doesn't have it happen. So you keep telling her again as if she were a child who can't understand or remember.

Not surprisingly this doesn't go down well with her.

A good reason for her not doing what you said she could do is that she didn't want this. Once you know she knows, don't tell her again. One day she may want to try it, and then she will.

In your situation you had to be proactive to get things started. As long as things continue to happen you should move from pushing for something to happen to giving positive feedback when it does happen and afterwards. This moves her from feeling 'oh dear, I've got to do something' to 'mmm, I think I might make him happy tonight and have some fun myself'.

So if you do something for her which is traditionally something we she is the only one who is meant to enjoy it, then saying immediately afterwards "Thankyou - I enjoyed that" is always appreciated and gets her starting to think AND FEEL that having you do this is pleasing you.

I strongly recommend against her giving forward planning assigned to a time (ie activity on Monday night). This means that if she changes her mind it is very easy to not do anything on Monday night and because you didn't know that she had been thinking of Monday activity, you are not shattered when it doesn't happen.

She: "Ok ... now ... for the next days though, I'd like you to be relaxed, and calm. Ok?"

Here she issues a request/rule. Really good that she is making what she wants clear.

Me: "Ok! Yes, great! So ... I'll try to not hassle you in any way, ok? Meaning that I won't mention chastity and my arousal in any way, that I don't touch you without asking even with good intentions, and also not ask if you need something, like massages. Ok?"
She: "Yeah ... ok, good."
Me: "You can of course tell me anytime you want to do something for you. I'd absolutely love that!"
She smiled, then: "Yes, I know. We'll see."

You seem to be taking over what she said , and I get the feel from her reply that she feels this.
MUCH BETTER to simply say "Yes Princess". (I find it helps to have a term for her role so that by saying this you both know you are referring to the role.)
You could add "I'll try my best. Please pull me up if I lapse".

The "you can of course ...." is repeating the same lesson to her as if she is a very stupid child.

With DevS I have the (optional) Wish Word "Be Quiet" which means that the Knight must stop talking about anything related to DevS. Very useful to her when we get over eager and want to talk every chance we get.

All quickly written so I hope it makes sense.

And once again remember to celebrate the huge progress you have both made!

 

[RonaldT]

Eager males can sometimes treat their partners as children when it comes to giving her control. You tell her something she can have happen. She doesn't do it. So another time you tell her again. She doesn't have it happen. So you keep telling her again as if she were a child who can't understand or remember.

Not surprisingly this doesn't go down well with her.

A good reason for her not doing what you said she could do is that she didn't want this. Once you know she knows, don't tell her again. One day she may want to try it, and then she will.

In your situation you had to be proactive to get things started. As long as things continue to happen you should move from pushing for something to happen to giving positive feedback when it does happen and afterwards. This moves her from feeling 'oh dear, I've got to do something' to 'mmm, I think I might make him happy tonight and have some fun myself'.

Resisted to do anything in this direction since Monday, when we agreed me do be quiet about it. No issues at all. Then two days ago, she let me out and said I could massage her. Then later she allowed me to tease myself for 30 mins, and after that tease me herself for 10 mins! So I hope this is what you meant.

So if you do something for her which is traditionally something we she is the only one who is meant to enjoy it, then saying immediately afterwards "Thankyou - I enjoyed that" is always appreciated and gets her starting to think AND FEEL that having you do this is pleasing you.

Will do when this happens!

I strongly recommend against her giving forward planning assigned to a time (ie activity on Monday night). This means that if she changes her mind it is very easy to not do anything on Monday night and because you didn't know that she had been thinking of Monday activity, you are not shattered when it doesn't happen.

Got it. I already told her to rather not mention exact timeframes, but that's something SHE still has to learn, though ... which will happen, but it takes time of course.

You seem to be taking over what she said , and I get the feel from her reply that she feels this.
MUCH BETTER to simply say "Yes Princess". (I find it helps to have a term for her role so that by saying this you both know you are referring to the role.)
You could add "I'll try my best. Please pull me up if I lapse".

The "you can of course ...." is repeating the same lesson to her as if she is a very stupid child.

With DevS I have the (optional) Wish Word "Be Quiet" which means that the Knight must stop talking about anything related to DevS. Very useful to her when we get over eager and want to talk every chance we get.

Fully understood - and, again, you seem to look through my motivations better that I did. That's why I post these things here - to have them reflected and learn. Thanks!

Will try to be more concise in these situations, but need to find my words here ... "Yes Princess" just sounds to dominant to her, will put her off immdiately. Same goes for "Be quiet" ... commands are (still) too bossy for her.

And once again remember to celebrate the huge progress you have both made!

YES, I do! I'm so thankful for our development!

 

[Juststartingcb]

I may need some advice how to proceed ...

My wife is still reluctant towards chastity, and in the moment is not amenable to her advantages of keeping me locked.

Things she says:
- Happiness: I wasn't unhappy with our marriage, so I don't quite see the point in chastity. You don't need this cage for me.
- Sex: I wouldn't need sex at all, but of course, it's nice to do with you from time to time - maybe every 3-4 weeks. Sex should be something special and nothing for everyday. My orgasm is nice, esp. since I found out I can get it reliably with the Satisfier. But then again, one is normally enough in one "play time".
- Oral: As I often got cystitis in the past, I don't like you going down on me.
- Support/Service: Of course I like when you help me around the house, but I also need to feel self-efficacy from just doing things myself. I can't stand you humbling around as servant, and I am no mistress that gives you commands! Just open your eyes and see what needs to be done on your own, that makes me happy.
- Male feelings: I wouldn't need you in chastity, but I understand that the cage is a tool for you, helping you to feel better.
- Cage: I don't like the cage actually. I don't want to lock it, look at it or touch it.
- Teasing: Because of all this, I don't like to tease you. I don't like sex and chastity to be "in the way", so don't get on my nerves with it.

As I wrote in other threads, I now started locking myself some time after sex and try to not mention it (just need the key for cleaning and sports), waiting until hormones start to make me more helpful and get me in "the zone", without upsetting her.

Hopefully she will bring up the topic eventually, but as you can see, she tends to forget about intimacy and might just let me out for sex after 3-4 weeks - probably with the feeling she's doing it for me.

Even trying to talk about chastity is risky, because she often gets upset and doesn't take the time it needs. She mixes talks about chastity goals etc. (which we need) with teasing talks when I'm horny (which she doesn't like).

Is there anything I can do to improve the situation - or is it just being patient?

If nothing else maybe you can eventually get the "FINE! If it is so important to you give me the keys. We'll see if you are still so excited after you've had it locked around your balls for a few months... but if you ask me to unlock you it stays off!" Angry answer from her.

 

[RonaldT]

If nothing else maybe you can eventually get the "FINE! If it is so important to you give me the keys. We'll see if you are still so excited after you've had it locked around your balls for a few months... but if you ask me to unlock you it stays off!" Angry answer from her.

We might already be over this stage ...

"Progress" Update!

I think we might have reached a new level in how we handle my chastity and integrate it in real life, so both of us can see benefits.

Until now, in retrospective I realize most things maybe were evaluation and trying, but lacking agreements on some important aspects.

Yesterday we discussed some remaining issues and seem to have a way forward (see below).

Yesterday, after 18 days locked, my wife decided to have a play time together ... because in the next days, she might not be ready for this .

She took her time, I needed to wait too long for her, which made it not so great for me in the end - but it was fantastic nonetheless! Because ...

Afterwards, she continued to read another book I had bought for myself a few weeks before (in German ... Arne Hoffmann: Chastity and Orgasm Control). This book is quite technical and is ... small and short, read in about 1,5 hours. My wife had asked me if that was also something for her (yeah! ), and if yes, that I could mark the relevant sentences for her. Which I did, categorized as "yes, fully agreed!", "interesting" and "forget it".

So she continued to read, understanding my marks, and after a while said, interested and open: "Yeah, here is the main issue I have with all this: 'Chastity increases his desire and arousal up to a very intensive level, and so this practise can be seen as foreplay over several days and even weeks.' You know ... you being locked is actually good, but it often is just too much for me."

I was so happy! Because that was exactly what I had spotted to be the main obstacle. So we had a talk again, and I told her that I see it exactly the same, and that this getting-over-the-top is tiring for me, too. And that I want to learn to manage that.

I suggested we might as well "officially" agree on what we tried in "test mode" over the last week ... and so we have an agreement now :

- I will not mention anything regarding my arousal.
- I will not touch her or ask her if I can do anything for her.
- I will try to go without cage, but will lock up when urges get too strong - and then it's ok to tell her.
- She hides and keeps the key.
- It's her alone who can start talking about chastity, my arousal and things to do for her.
- She will really try to not let me feel "locked and forgotten".

Out idea is that removing chastity etc as much as possible from real life will get the pressure from her. And when we agreed on the above, she had a slight smile on her face - maybe she realized what this means for a fraction of a second ...

I also suggested I could try without cage altogether, but she replied if that makes me touch myself three times a day - no, then I should rather lock up.

Earlier in this thread, you guys told me to give her the space she needs - and I realize now I hadn't yet done this properly.

So this is it now! I hope that I can control myself, and that she at least tries to be relaxed and use her control!

Anyway, this whole thing somehow feels different now!

 

[DevotionalSex]

Congratulations on making such progress!

From my Devotional Sex perspective, one thing you didn't mention is physical intimacy, especially cuddling in bed. His energy makes him want cuddles even more, and he enjoys 'just a cuddle' as he knows that it is totally up to her whether or not more happens. Once she feels that his arousal is just him desiring her, and it has no expectation that things go further, she can fully relax having a cuddle with her aroused Knight.

Though DevS leads to more sexual activity, and more orgasms for her, for many women the biggest benefit is the increase in intimacy and connection and thus a better relationship.

So your wife should understand that allowing you to cuddle her is very good for you and is one way that you don't feel ignored. Yes, your desire for further activity is often ignored, but your energy is celebrated by the connection of the cuddle, and so you don't feel ignored as a partner.

45% of men living DevS are not allowed to play with themselves. So this is something which can be done when a man is committed enough to ensure it happens. So if this is what she wants (no cage, no play) then the Knight has a dragon he has to battle to honor his Princess.

If you have the system where you put the cage when you have the urge to play with yourself then that is a mental exit from the challenge. And it is even worse if you want to wear the cage because then "I can't resist playing with myself" becomes an excuse to put the cage on.

As well as it being a very different experience for you whether or not you wear the cage, it is a different experience and feeling for her. The key to long term success is her finding out what feels best for her. This might be no cage, always cage, or time with one then times of the other.

If you often have morning and bedtime cuddles, then does she like you having an erection (and you showing your devotion by not expecting this to lead to anything) or you caged (with her enjoying that nothing can happen unless she unlocks you).

If she doesn't want lots of cuddles then perhaps the cage works best. You then have 'activity' of feeling caged and hers even without the physical contact.

And getting back to the playing with yourself, if there isn't much contact then the cage is the best way to prevent playing with yourself as without the intimacy of the cuddles which accept your arousal, it would be much harder to keep your commitment to not play with yourself.

Writing this post has made clear to me the importance of the frequency of cuddles to how the dynamic will feel, and thus it will affect the caged or uncaged decision she makes.

Good luck!

 

[DevotionalSex]

It's been ages since we have heard from RonaldT.

I hope things are going ok, and that if there was a crash that they have got over this.

I hope he posts again sometime so we can find out how things are going.

 

[RonaldT]

Wow, so nice that you ask, I'm feeling honored!

Yes, it has been a while since my last post. We live our life, so to speak, and continue our journey. There was no crash! But - obviously - also no full-stop, full-turn change of our lifestyle ...

As it often takes me more words than others to express myself, and I'd like to find the right ones (foreign language) , I'll stop right now and come back very soon to report more!

 

[DevotionalSex]

Great to hear that you are all ok and continuing your journey. I look forward to your update.

 

[RonaldT]

Ok, then! It's three weeks since my last post, so I'll share an update. I've deliberately let things slide a bit here, to see how it all goes for us. Quite some things happened, quite some things evolved, and it's hard to bring it all in order. But I'll do my best.

General Situation
We just live our life ... and in veeery little baby steps learn and include (new) things resulting from me being chaste (and also my submissive nature - see below).

My main insight is: I am still new to all this - you guys told me! Coping with disappointment (from unmet expectations, not so much from frustration of being locked) is the hardest part for me right now. This will shine through most of my report here. But how to learn patience and deal with this disappointment?

Concerning my wife: It seems she's still doing it for my sake, mostly. She accepts my chastity, lets me do it and got easier with in the last weeks. But she doesn't take advantages of it actively on her own. It's not on her mind at all (but on mine!), and everything has to be initiated by me. I try to be very reserved about it, and only when I mention it she thinks of something that she might want me to do.

Time Together
During the three weeks, we "had an encounter" four times - all with Os for her, while I had to sit out twice . Oh man, I'd really love this to be more often, but she still insists on eg. "We already had it yesterday! That's enough for this week ... I am satisfied and don't need more ... So can you get it out of your head for now?" I am quite jealous of those of you who say your SO want to have sex or play time every other day!

OTOH, almost every evening I give my wife massages or foot rubs, often over an hour! Yes, that's fantastic - but it's still not easy for me that my wife is so frugal. If your SO is like her - how do you guys deal with this?

Talks
As written earlier, we had agreed that I must not mention chastity, arousal etc. myself, only she can. But sometimes this leads to the pink elephant in the room ... with her being uncertain, talking about absolutely everything but this, and me being grumpy.

So we had two or three good talks. She said my arousal seems always on my mind (also see my last post above), and this often was too much for her.

And I said that although I'm not feeling really "locked and forgotten", I often feel disappointed. When she eg. talks about play time on a certain day, and then withdraws it because she has "something better" to do. Or when she puts her hand on my thigh, but doesn't move it nor touches anything and then thinks this is nice teasing. Or (pink elephant) when she seems to do and talk about everything she can to NOT order me do something or ask for a favor.

I also confessed that I'm more kinky and submissive than I'd like myself sometimes, and that I feel my kinks are wrong, and are too much for her. Yes, I know: Starting chastity and mixing in kinks is not the best idea in general. But we've made some way together now, and we communicate openly, and I had issues with not being seen, so I decided I could dare to mention it. And indeed she was open. She said no, she could cope with my kinks, and that I was ok.

I admitted I'd crave my those feelings to be fed, at least for the moment, and that I'd love if she gave me eg. chores to do or made me do humiliating things (why do I like this?!). I said it would feed my submission and make me feel seen if she let me do more household chores ... and she replied: "Huh? We already agreed on this, didn't we?" So now I do as much household as possible, and she lets me do it, without trying to catch up or saying she could do it herself! OTOH, she almost never gives feedback or teases me verbally about it. But that's ok - it's just not on her mind, and she forgets that I might like it.

I explained that for me, play time - even if she doesn't need some - would also be doing these chores or humiliating things. She smiled and said ok, understood ... see below.

So, in summary: Things should be fun for both. If expectations are not met, communication helps! And that's what we did. I assured her that I really want to learn to deal with impatience, disappointment and frustration, to not getting on her nerves. And she said she would try to set clearer guidelines and to remember that me being chaste is of course quite often on my mind. And she wants to try to be more relaxed with my kinks (eg. like sniffing her feet or get spankings).

Things we play
Since Feb 12th, one time she bound me to a chair in front of her bed, unlocked me, put her legs on my shoulder and started to masturbate. I could only watch. And in the end I was untied and allowed to cum inside her.

Once she masturbated and came, while I was allowed to play with myself laying beside her. But I was not allowed to cum.

Last weekend, watching TV, right before going to bed, I asked her if I could go to the bedroom, get naked and kneel in a corner beside the wardrobe and wait for her (BTW, it was her who came up with the idea of an "offside" for me behind the wardrobe when we renovated our bedroom last autumn ... We just didn't do it because of space reasons! Phew, getting nervous ... she really likes me not being able to watch her!) She said ok, I'll follow you when this show is over. So I did it. I tried really hard to stimulate myself somehow - which was super frustrating, because I was locked ... nice. I liked that. When she entered the room, she watched my back, me kneeling in the corner, head on the wall. She undressed and ordered me over to her to rub her feet. I was allowed to sniff them, too. It was a great experience!

On Monday we were alone in the morning. She had thought about playing, but then decided that we "just" sleep with each other. She asked me if I wanted to cum, but I was aware that she wanted it. So I did. "Sex must still be possible without any play and toys!" she said. I was a bit disappointed ... why must sex be possible fully-vanilla?

Then on Wednesday, us again alone in the morning. She had thought about playing, but then decided she was not in the mood . But then she changed her mind again and called me upstairs. I asked her if I should bring something. "Yes, your noise-cancelling headphones." Me: "Anything else maybe?" She: "What do you have in mind?" Me: "A wooden spoon?" She: "Ok, get it!" When I entered the bedroom, she said: "So you wanted chores, right? Ok, get naked and grab the vaccum cleaner. Close the door. I'll do my thing here. Clean the floor and the bathroom, naked. When done, you can knock on the door and ask to come in. I'll then decide whether you can still make yourself useful." Wow, that was so hot! I really hurried up, finished, knocked, and when I was allowed to enter the bedroom, she almost had finished herself. I asked if I could watch her pussy for a few moments, which was allowed .Then she grabbed the wooden spoon, I kneeled on the bed and she hit me quite hard about 20 times. Ouch! She didn't unlock me. and I didn't cum. Also such a great experience!

Then, yesterday, was the very first time she kind-of initiated things on her own. Watching TV on the sofa, she took off her sweater and moved in my direction. I asked her if she wanted a back rub, and yes. That took almost an hour, and later in bed I asked if I should continue with her feet. Yes, please! So I did it for another 20 mins, while she stimulated my perineum with her feet ... wow, such intense sensations! She said "we'll play there" soon a bit more ... wooah!! I still wanted to finish another movie, and asked her if she could lay out the keys, for better sleep (Sleeping caged is still not acceptable - I try, but the missing hours WILL cause damage some day ...). "Of course!", she said. But I told her that secretly I hoped that she doesn't give me the keys when I ask, for better effect ... Anyway: When I came to bed later, no keys were there!

So you see. Many things happened. Small and maybe not-so-small steps. Things that I realize, others that I don't see yet. Sometimes you don't get everything that's going on - but others may see it ...

Sorry for the long report ... if you got here, be sure: As always, I am very interested in your feedback and opinions!

 

[atxmtb]

Sounds like things are working well. If a woman is not a natural domm, it all seems weird. Like my wife will say no to some things because "some things you can't unsee". In other words, there is nothing arousing to her at all in playing the mistress. She doesn't want to have an image of me as a submissive. Your wife seems a bit more open, and can play dominant sometimes. Enjoy those times but be sure to still give her what she wants, not what you wish she wanted. The dynamic of the guy having sex always on his mind and the girl being ok if it happens once a week is really normal. Of course I wish she were as horny as I. That's where chastity fits in. If you practice it long enough, you'll both find a rhythm that works.

 

[knightly]

You guys have some wins to celebrate!

I know it's hard at times and feels like there isn't progress (much of what you said resonates with me and my dynamic/challenges). I get impatient, too, and want certain experiences and to finally just open up and be me.

Find some time to hold her. Don't talk (unless the spirit moves), just embrace, hold, and let her relax into you. Let yourselves feel the love for each other. And celebrate the communication, experimentation, trust, tolerance, and safety that is developing between you. I know this sounds woo woo, but in the midst of what you described...she is trying, you are trying, you are both engaged and living the ups and downs of expansion and growth. Keep going!

Out of this you will find your strides, learn yourselves and each other, and open more and more. Through that, I think the authenticity you crave will emerge. It may take different forms, sometimes hitting the vision you have in your imagination, sometimes it will be something else. Keep going, keep practicing! All of this is leading you forward to learn more. You guys are brave!

I could get specific on some things, maybe I'll address some specific topics, but this is my initial reaction.

 

[pepita143]

Agreed.

Bingo! I think what Orion says is key, both parties must appreciate the coin, however...

 

[RonaldT]

Bingo! I think what Orion says is key, both parties must appreciate the coin, however...

I watched that video some time ago and found it really eye-opening. Didn't want to show it to my wife though because of it's probable spiritual background (which would have led to distracting discussions), but that's absolutely not the point here ...

My point is: On many days, my wife would question men-coins and women-coins in themselves! She would question the need to pay anything, wouldn't pull her wallet out of her bag, wouldn't look at those coins - to stay in the picture.

If a couple looks at their coins and start to realize what is described in the video - fine, that's a good starting point. But exactly today we are not there at all.

While I wrote about how well things eveolved, this is also part of the truth: I'm feeling completely depressed and frustrated today (and no, I'm absolutely sure I don't suffer from depression). We started with an argument right after waking up, because my wife has a snoring issue and I got awake really early (on Saturday) ... I was pissed, she again had a bad conscience ... well, everyday problems. So we started our day with absolutely no love and compassion. It's day 5 for me after the last O, and I am unlocked since Thursday evening. She's away this morning, and I bet chastity and "us together" is the very last thing on her mind at least for this weekend.

So right now, I can't imagine to lock up today. Doing chores while she's away? Why? If she doesn't "consider the coins" at all? It's hard ... but normal, I guess

 

[atxmtb]

I watched that video some time ago and found it really eye-opening. Didn't want to show it to my wife though because of it's probable spiritual background (which would have led to distracting discussions), but that's absolutely not the point here ...

My point is: On many days, my wife would question men-coins and women-coins in themselves! She would question the need to pay anything, wouldn't pull her wallet out of her bag, wouldn't look at those coins - to stay in the picture.

If a couple looks at their coins and start to realize what is described in the video - fine, that's a good starting point. But exactly today we are not there at all.

While I wrote about how well things eveolved, this is also part of the truth: I'm feeling completely depressed and frustrated today (and no, I'm absolutely sure I don't suffer from depression). We started with an argument right after waking up, because my wife has a snoring issue and I got awake really early (on Saturday) ... I was pissed, she again had a bad conscience ... well, everyday problems. So we started our day with absolutely no love and compassion. It's day 5 for me after the last O, and I am unlocked since Thursday evening. She's away this morning, and I bet chastity and "us together" is the very last thing on her mind at least for this weekend.

So right now, I can't imagine to lock up today. Doing chores while she's away? Why? If she doesn't "consider the coins" at all? It's hard ... but normal, I guess

I know it doesn't seem "romantic", but if you have a spare bedroom or a couch, they can be comfortable place to sleep. The snoring problem on our end is reversed. I'm the one that (reportedly) snores. She used to wake me up at all hours. That began to piss me off. So, I just started sleeping in the spare room. We will lay around in the master when we're watching tv, or being intimate but for sleeping, I go to my own space. I get to have things at a temperature I prefer, I don't have to listen to her watching tv, I don't get woken up.

 

[RonaldT]

I know it doesn't seem "romantic", but if you have a spare bedroom or a couch, they can be comfortable place to sleep. The snoring problem on our end is reversed. I'm the one that (reportedly) snores. She used to wake me up at all hours. That began to piss me off. So, I just started sleeping in the spare room. We will lay around in the master when we're watching tv, or being intimate but for sleeping, I go to my own space. I get to have things at a temperature I prefer, I don't have to listen to her watching tv, I don't get woken up.

Yeah, exactly that conclusion was our impulsive reaction this morning ... it will take time though to accept this as a possible last resort ... and time oc, until the first kid is out of the house.

 

[DevotionalSex]

As Knightly says, you have many wins to celebrate.

But I get the feel that you are still very focussed on what you want, and you are thus frustrated that your wife isn't doing all you wish.

I didn't look at the YouTube video. (Probably less than 5% of people who read a post with a link will click on it, and it's even worse with a video as you can't quickly scan the text to get to the gist of what is being said.)

The only thing which will work long term is doing what gives you BOTH mutual happiness in each activity and interaction. So your focus needs to be on what can happen which makes HER happy.

Mutual happiness for an activity doesn't need to be an equal amount of happiness each, and the happiness doesn't need to be the same, but the interaction has to be something which makes you both happy.

If she WANTS a foot or back massage - getting this makes her happy - then she will want to make you happy, and thus she could tease you a little.

Of course best is when she asks for it as then you know she wants it.

You can offer to give a massage as long as she feels totally relaxed and comfortable saying no. It should be like if you want a drink, and get up to go and get it from the kitchen, and you say I'm getting a drink, would you like something? She may think that's a great idea. Or she may say no thanks.

If she is letting you give her a massage because she knows you want activity then her keeping you happy is letting you give the massage. Her teasing you is then an added thing which she isn't going to want to do.

When mutual happiness is happening, and there is connection and intimacy, things can grow as when someone is happy they like to keep their partner happy as well.

The other key thing to remember is that you have started from a very low base. She may change one day, but unless she does, you will always be hoping for much more.

The key to personal happiness (with material goods as well as other things) is to be happy and grateful for what you have.

You both have the option of going back to what you were doing before. Whatever technique you try, success will only come when you BOTH feel that doing this technique is better than going back to how things were.

This is a bit of a brain dump of what I've been thinking about for the last few days. I'm happy to expand on this if anyone has any questions.

 

[RonaldT]

But I get the feel that you are still very focussed on what you want, and you are thus frustrated that your wife isn't doing all you wish.

The only thing which will work long term is doing what gives you BOTH mutual happiness in each activity and interaction. So your focus needs to be on what can happen which makes HER happy.

When mutual happiness is happening, and there is connection and intimacy, things can grow as when someone is happy they like to keep their partner happy as well.

The other key thing to remember is that you have started from a very low base. She may change one day, but unless she does, you will always be hoping for much more.

The key to personal happiness (with material goods as well as other things) is to be happy and grateful for what you have.

@DevotionalSex, you are right: I'm trying to evolve things, and while doing self-relection, I have a hard time getting my own feelings out of the way.

We had another talk this evening. We haven't had anything happening for 4 days and she could see how I felt and asked "if we have a pink elephant". - "No. Yes. Well, I try to get along." Some insightful things she said that I will think through, with my initial reactions:

1. "Don't you know what to do with your time if we don't do anything together? Find a new hobby, or cycle 40 km so that you fall into bed dead tired in the evening and are distracted from your urges."
   I said she is correct here, right now I circle a lot in my mind around chastity. And that I hope this might decrease with more routine.
   
   
2. "Do you have any idea what you can do for me?" Me: "Take things off your hands?" Her: "Yes! But not just the kitchen. For example, I would like to have days when I have completely free time, without eg. fear of the children playing on their own for 3 hours."
   I said I understand, and appreciate this very much. This is a fantastic, very explicit hint want she wants!
   
   
3. "Why don't you eg. take the kids swimming, without me suggesting it? It's usually me making such suggestions. You know what: You're not very good at that. And I - I'm also not very good at things, eg. keeping an eye on your chastity and how you feel. And: I don't want the pressure of always having to care about that. That's just the way it is.
   I said she is correct, but that I don't want to just say 'that's it'. I want to learn, improve and develop, for me and for her. And that 'That's just the way it is' for me is a bit loveless. Made her think.
   
   
4. "You say you want to do housework for me. But could you also imagine that this is simply a new division of normal everyday tasks?
   I said that I don't do the chores 'for her', and that it's not sexual. That it's more: 'If I do it, she doesn't need to'. That I want to make her happy and would love to do more in the house. But yes, always with the hope that she might then feel more relaxed, to maybe make intimite actions happen. Hope dies last. Made her smile slightly.
   
   
5. "I don't always want sex. But you always seem wanting it differently. I don't know how we're going to get together here yet. Maybe you'll have to go somewhere else. I have no idea!"
   I asked what go 'somewhere else' meant. She couldn't say. This is a new aspect that irritates me. Yes, in fantasies other women play a role. But ... well.
   
   
6. "You say you really want to learn to accept my decisions so that I don't have any pressure. And you also say that you're not very good at that yet. But then at the same time you say that you want more teasing and me caring about you because otherwise you'd be unhappy. And you'd then watch porn - disgusting. This puts so much pressure on me! That sucks!"
   I said I fully see her point, and that I am the issue here, not her. That I want all pressure gone from her, but send contradicting signals and really want to try to get better.

She asked me what we could maybe do differently in the next week, and I suggested I'd really try to be grateful for what we do. And that she could try to be more determined, eg. in giving me tasks or letting me do things for her. She thought I wanted to be touched more, but I explained it would already help me if she didn't ask me doing things ("well if you like, you could maybe" or "do you have (play) plans for this morning?"), but just say what she wants. Don't know though if that really hits the core of the issue ...

So for now, I have two questions:

1. If your SO is similar to mine - how much time is there between 'actions' related to your chastity? Is something happening every day? Or do you wait days or weeks patiently? (I don't want to discuss that both partners have to contribute etc., that's clear ... I just want to start purely on my side and to 'ground myself' to what's maybe normal ...)
   
   
2. I really need to change my focus to her needs, and be grateful for what we already achieved. But HOW to do that? How does that work in concrete terms? How did you get there?

 

[knightly]

@RonaldT, your post resonates with me...we've had many of the same discussions, concerns, and negotiations. I want to ask your perspective on something...superficially unrelated, but possibly indelibly woven into the theme here. Apologies if I'm off the mark or overstep bounds. But I'm going to give this a try...

What are your experiences and family history with Germany history and especially World War 2? And how do you think that relates to your and your wife's childhood experiences and then growth into adult life? And then specifically as it relates to "play", and guilt and shame around letting go into play, desires and fulfillment of "non-work" stuff?

I ask because I grew up as an American kid in the 80s (malls, video games, communication era, Reaganomics, birth control, HBO and MTV). In one word: Abundance. The US had become a global powerhouse post WW2. High school, for me, for example, was learning and school, but also parties, and exploring - whether out in the world on adventures, or with girls, geeking out with computers, etc.

My wife grew up in eastern Germany (limited resources/scarcity, closed mindset, former communism, and I think a TON of trauma post-WW2). Limited exposure to culture, limited dating experiences, and a family mindset of scarcity and survival.

Esther Perel describes the scene very well:

"My parents Sala Ferlegier and Icek Perel were survivors of the Nazi concentration camps and sole survivors of their respective families. My father had nine siblings, my mother, seven. For four years, my parents stood face-to-face with death. Trauma was woven into the fabric of my family history (and would inspire my work for years to come). They came out of that experience wanting to charge at life with a vengeance and to make the most of each day. They both felt that they had been granted a unique gift: living life again. My parents didn’t just want to survive, they wanted to revive. They wanted to embrace vibrancy and vitality — in the mystical sense of the word, the erotic. I owe them much of my perspective on life, as well as my belief in the power of will, the search for meaning, and the resilience of the human spirit. To me, there is a world of difference between “not being dead” and “being alive”. I owe this understanding to my parents."

Are you guys alive? Are you living life to its fullest, and with an abundance mindset? Esther describes two mindsets: "Survive" and "thrive". Post-WW2, some people's mindsets are that of survival. Keep your head down, work hard, don't get out of line. Others thrive..."we're not going to let our situation bring us down, we're going to figure out how to have a good time despite the situation."

I might be way off base here, and we can move on with the topic. But you asked for others perspectives and experiences. I think this theme, one of scarcity vs abundance mindset, has been a core theme in our relationship. One that has taken time to really surface as to the depths and differences in experiences (and thus difference in expectations) between us.

Everything you described (chores, taking time with the kids, sexual desires, etc) are absolutely important topics that couples need to communicate and figure out.

But how are they approached? From a survival (maybe victim) mindset or one of abundance?

For example, why isn't the conversation and mood about "how do we work together to get this stuff done - dishes, kids, housework, repairs, job/money, etc" so we can go play together? For that matter, "let's play while we're work...honey, strip and go do the dishes, let's see that cage flop as you do and I tease you". I want to make you happy and for you to make me happy. What will fill each of you up? Just let go, be in the moment, and play together. Fill each other up with play, happy feelings, and joy. Give to each other without abandon.

Just as much as you could be saying (and I'm not saying you're not) "honey, I'm taking the kids out this weekend so you have some free time...and here's a reservation at a spa"...or whatever she'd like, she could be saying "let's go lock you up, I'm going to tease you into a horny frenzy just like you'd like me to - be careful what you wish for".

Instead (how your post reads, and my experiences also reflect), it's often a scarcity mindset approach and limiting/constraining.

Think about the narrative behind your conversations, they sound so "German". . And I can say that because I know the dynamic all too well.

American's have their own thing, some is similar, some is far more narcissistic and "me first" focused, so I'm not saying everything is perfect here either.

 

[RonaldT]

WOW! This needs careful thinking - will reply soon!

First thoughts for now: Yes, she is "alive". Me not so much, tbh. She gets so much out of so many aspects of life, I for myself have the impression to be in a sort of mid-life thing, don't really know my place in life. That's one of the reasons we are not "in sync" (also see the first bullet point above about free time). In short: It's me more than her who causes issues.

And yes - I guess I sound very German, not only in writing, but also in my thoughts and questions! But I consider it actually a nice thing that somebody notices that - people and cultures are different - that's interesting!

Wil be back soon ...

 

[atxmtb]

@DevotionalSex, you are right: I'm trying to evolve things, and while doing self-relection, I have a hard time getting my own feelings out of the way.

We had another talk this evening. We haven't had anything happening for 4 days and she could see how I felt and asked "if we have a pink elephant". - "No. Yes. Well, I try to get along." Some insightful things she said that I will think through, with my initial reactions:

1. "Don't you know what to do with your time if we don't do anything together? Find a new hobby, or cycle 40 km so that you fall into bed dead tired in the evening and are distracted from your urges."
   I said she is correct here, right now I circle a lot in my mind around chastity. And that I hope this might decrease with more routine.
   
   
2. "Do you have any idea what you can do for me?" Me: "Take things off your hands?" Her: "Yes! But not just the kitchen. For example, I would like to have days when I have completely free time, without eg. fear of the children playing on their own for 3 hours."
   I said I understand, and appreciate this very much. This is a fantastic, very explicit hint want she wants!
   
   
3. "Why don't you eg. take the kids swimming, without me suggesting it? It's usually me making such suggestions. You know what: You're not very good at that. And I - I'm also not very good at things, eg. keeping an eye on your chastity and how you feel. And: I don't want the pressure of always having to care about that. That's just the way it is.
   I said she is correct, but that I don't want to just say 'that's it'. I want to learn, improve and develop, for me and for her. And that 'That's just the way it is' for me is a bit loveless. Made her think.
   
   
4. "You say you want to do housework for me. But could you also imagine that this is simply a new division of normal everyday tasks?
   I said that I don't do the chores 'for her', and that it's not sexual. That it's more: 'If I do it, she doesn't need to'. That I want to make her happy and would love to do more in the house. But yes, always with the hope that she might then feel more relaxed, to maybe make intimite actions happen. Hope dies last. Made her smile slightly.
   
   
5. "I don't always want sex. But you always seem wanting it differently. I don't know how we're going to get together here yet. Maybe you'll have to go somewhere else. I have no idea!"
   I asked what go 'somewhere else' meant. She couldn't say. This is a new aspect that irritates me. Yes, in fantasies other women play a role. But ... well.
   
   
6. "You say you really want to learn to accept my decisions so that I don't have any pressure. And you also say that you're not very good at that yet. But then at the same time you say that you want more teasing and me caring about you because otherwise you'd be unhappy. And you'd then watch porn - disgusting. This puts so much pressure on me! That sucks!"
   I said I fully see her point, and that I am the issue here, not her. That I want all pressure gone from her, but send contradicting signals and really want to try to get better.

She asked me what we could maybe do differently in the next week, and I suggested I'd really try to be grateful for what we do. And that she could try to be more determined, eg. in giving me tasks or letting me do things for her. She thought I wanted to be touched more, but I explained it would already help me if she didn't ask me doing things ("well if you like, you could maybe" or "do you have (play) plans for this morning?"), but just say what she wants. Don't know though if that really hits the core of the issue ...

So for now, I have two questions:

1. If your SO is similar to mine - how much time is there between 'actions' related to your chastity? Is something happening every day? Or do you wait days or weeks patiently? (I don't want to discuss that both partners have to contribute etc., that's clear ... I just want to start purely on my side and to 'ground myself' to what's maybe normal ...)
   
   
2. I really need to change my focus to her needs, and be grateful for what we already achieved. But HOW to do that? How does that work in concrete terms? How did you get there?

You've given it a lot of reflection. What strikes me is the intensity. By that I mean, yeah, you're giving it a lot of thought but is it warranted? Of course we need to focus thoughts and energies in order to initiate change. Yet real change happens organically. There are lots of metaphors in film and literature. Like an invisible wall that will keep you out if you run into it or punch it, yet will let you through if you approach slowly. You may want change, but if it's perceived as drastic change it may be seen as a rejection of what you have. It will illicit resistance much as that invisible wall. That all being said, guys are problem solvers. We think things through until we figure out a way forward. Sterotypes have women as "overthinkers", yet men are "oversolvers". Men are also sexually focused. So when a guy wants to change up something sexual, it is ripe for becoming a big deal. This is me projecting, but as a guy ages, we realize we don't want to lose our youth. We want to be that horny, we want our spouses to be sensual, we want to think about sex all day. Even if we end up losing some libido, we recognize that and resist it. It's a primal need for us. The aging of our wives follows a different path. Sure, they think fondly of their youth, of the passion, but they are less desperate to preserve that vitality. They are more emotional creatures where men are more physical. A guy doesn't want to give up the physical. A woman would rather find a way to build deeper emotional connections. Chastity is a way for a guy to decrease the physical and increase the emotional. The thing to keep in mind though is that it only really works in slow motion. Guys want to solve the problem. Like now. Women move way slower than that. They will resist if it's too fast. They will think you're obsessive. They may feel less. They may see you as unhappy.

So my suggestion. Just take it slow. Real slow. Don't push anything. Don't make her change to facilitate some change you want in yourself. You be the change. Talk it out on this site if it helps, but don't require anything of her. In the end, you'll almost never get exactly what you set out for, but you will grow together and end up in a place that you both choose.

 

[pepita143]

I watched that video some time ago and found it really eye-opening. Didn't want to show it to my wife though because of it's probable spiritual background (which would have led to distracting discussions), but that's absolutely not the point here ...

My point is: On many days, my wife would question men-coins and women-coins in themselves! She would question the need to pay anything, wouldn't pull her wallet out of her bag, wouldn't look at those coins - to stay in the picture.

If a couple looks at their coins and start to realize what is described in the video - fine, that's a good starting point. But exactly today we are not there at all.

While I wrote about how well things eveolved, this is also part of the truth: I'm feeling completely depressed and frustrated today (and no, I'm absolutely sure I don't suffer from depression). We started with an argument right after waking up, because my wife has a snoring issue and I got awake really early (on Saturday) ... I was pissed, she again had a bad conscience ... well, everyday problems. So we started our day with absolutely no love and compassion. It's day 5 for me after the last O, and I am unlocked since Thursday evening. She's away this morning, and I bet chastity and "us together" is the very last thing on her mind at least for this weekend.

So right now, I can't imagine to lock up today. Doing chores while she's away? Why? If she doesn't "consider the coins" at all? It's hard ... but normal, I guess

Firstly, I am sorry to hear you were having a bad day. I think there a lots of ups and downs and frustrations in this lifestyle.

That said, I don't think the author is really religious... I bought his book on theory the transactional nature of sexual relationships. There is no religion in that book and it is a dense and technical read. My wife and I are reading it together but he basically says the same thing for 300+ pages: any relationship of a sexual nature is based on some sort of transaction, whether implicitly recognized or not. I think the video really succinctly sums up the concept. In his book, he makes the point that people often don't recognize this concept, and when they do, "pulling out the coin" as you say, makes a lot more sense to them. After about fifty pages into the book, we decided we will watch the video together tonight (I have seen it, she has not).

RT, I am in a somewhat similar to you. My kink level is much higher that my wife who comes from a vanilla, somewhat sexually conservative background, btw (I thought ALL you Germans were kinky, lol). It sounds like from earlier posts your wife has definitely pulled the coin out a few times, however., my question is, are you pulling out the coin for her? What is it that she truly needs? Are those needs being met. You, like me, have certain needs involving our kink. I wouldn't even call those desires, but real physical needs for submission and chastity. You two, as a couple, should be honest with whether or not those can eventually be met. This stuff takes time. But to re-iterate, I think frustration (the bad kind) is unavoidable.

Like, you, it has been challenging to slowly open up about my needs for submission and chastity. My wife and I have a daily journal that we share together and I wrote in there that one concern of mine was about our mismatch in her vanilla and my more kinky desires. She was concerned when she read what I had written (specifically that I was into some maschochistic stuff... which isnt the case) and this has lead to some fruitful discussions. I think as long as your partner truly does care about your happiness, then she and you will eventually get there. As for us, I have said to my wife that I want her to decide when I get to cum (the was I said it was along the lines of "since I always want to have sex, wouldn't be easier if you got to decide when we do?" --- I this manipulative? --- I am not 100% sure it is since in the end, the goal is the same). I have not brought up chastity using a cage yet as I feel this would be an intimidating step for her. She had a positive response and her eyes lit up when I said she should be the one in control of our sex lives. She admitted that her role in sex has always been the stereotypical one where the man is in charge and controls things. I pointed out to her that I think she is naturally dominant (she is strong willed latina and definitiey likes to rule the roost in other things). I told her, though, if she wanted me to be dominant in bed, I could easily do that for her as though I am naturally a sub, I can switch when asked to. Anyway, last night I made her dinner (as I usually do) and massaged her feet and legs as we watched some TV. After about an hour of that she said she wanted me inside of her. We went upstairs to bed and she gave me very clear and specific instructions of what to do and how she wanted me to warm up some lube and massage her pussy, and then put my cock in her. When I fucked her from behind she told me to pull her hair... she has never done that before. She was clearly in charge.

Finally, I would like to re-iterate, as others have said, emotional control for women is very important. If she does not have the emotional connection, why would she want to make that kink connection that you need. You may want to be absolutely forthwright and simply ask, "What do I need to do to get you to lock my cock in a cage and keep it there?"

 

[DevotionalSex]

Last night I was thinking about why couples where the man wants chastity so often need to have big talks with their partner.

Then this morning I read the above post which told me the key theme of The Value of Others book and videos. I then checked AI and a few reviews for some more info.

Rather than this book being the solution to moving forward I, think it makes clear why things don't progress and why there is endless talk.

Of course my opinion is just that, my opinion. So I don't expect everyone to agree.

The book resonates with some because it makes clear the transactional thinking of readers who think this way. The transactional way of doing things can lead to relationships and lead to sex. I think the endless talk about chastity is due to repeatedly trying make a transactional deal.

I had a very strong negative reaction to what the book says. For me the transactional nature is the opposite of what leads to great sex, intimacy, and connection. The transactional nature has a focus on individual desires whilst great sex and a great relationship is about shared desires.

I think the internet has done a lot of damage to the quality of sex and relationships as the internet takes male desires and makes them more and more extreme, and this is all done without any consideration of what their partner would like. The male problem is how he can get his partner to implement HIS fantasies.

If one person wants to try a new sexual practice or technique, their partner may be against this because what they suggest is so different from 'normal'. If there is a great relationship then they may be willing to give it a try. Some will then discover that this works for them, and the couple can mutually enjoy the new activity/technique. But of course some will discover that now they have got a very good taste of the new thing that it is NOT for them.

If a woman wants to try Devotional Sex with her partner it's not surprising that most men will react negatively. After all, having far fewer ejaculations and doing only what she wishes sexually can't possibly be of benefit to him. If there is a good relationship, or if the relationship isn't that great and he thinks that trying something very different might help, even though he strongly against the idea he might be willing to give it a go. When she is keen and he is willing to give it a go I suggest a one month trial. If, after the month, he prefers going back to normal then that's it. She can be pleased that he gave it a go, but if it's not for him then it's not for him.

I think this give it a good try to discover whether or not it is for you is appropriate for all techniques - Tantra, BDSM, FemDom, Male Dom, FLR, and chastity.

When there is a base of mutual pleasure and enjoyment with what you do it's easy to then want to please your partner by having some things happen mainly to please them, and for them to do the same for you. This isn't transactional, it's enjoying pleasing your partner.

So thinking as I write this, my conclusion seems to be that the starting point has to be what can you both do that is mutually enjoyable - something that you both want to do to both please yourself and to please your partner.

So a controversial brain dump. What do you all think?

 

[knightly]

Last night I was thinking about why couples where the man wants chastity so often need to have big talks with their partner.

Then this morning I read the above post which told me the key theme of The Value of Others book and videos. I then checked AI and a few reviews for some more info.

Rather than this book being the solution to moving forward I, think it makes clear why things don't progress and why there is endless talk.

Of course my opinion is just that, my opinion. So I don't expect everyone to agree.

The book resonates with some because it makes clear the transactional thinking of readers who think this way. The transactional way of doing things can lead to relationships and lead to sex. I think the endless talk about chastity is due to repeatedly trying make a transactional deal.

Orion resonates to me because of how he distills relationship dynamics (e.g. the power dynamic) into equivalent economic terms. The concept of the man being a ship captain and his woman being a passenger (and kids and all that) is a helpful analogy. Same as the coins, it articulates a lot about how the underlying male and female drives, behaviors and roles can work.

I had a very strong negative reaction to what the book says. For me the transactional nature is the opposite of what leads to great sex, intimacy, and connection. The transactional nature has a focus on individual desires whilst great sex and a great relationship is about shared desires.

Later in the book, Orion makes the distinction between a relationship (relational) and love. Love is different, as he (and Leonard Cohen) aptly describe, love is a cold and broken hallelujah. Love doesn't care about transaction, give or take. It transcends those concepts. But even that goes beyond shared desires. Think back to something or someone you've truly loved. You gave into it without expecting any payback. Shared desires you describe are still transactional. You're expecting a payout of the thing you want, for giving the thing they want. That just an equitable transaction, and that makes both partners equally happy (quoting the DevS commitments).

I think the internet has done a lot of damage to the quality of sex and relationships as the internet takes male desires and makes them more and more extreme, and this is all done without any consideration of what their partner would like. The male problem is how he can get his partner to implement HIS fantasies.

If one person wants to try a new sexual practice or technique, their partner may be against this because what they suggest is so different from 'normal'. If there is a great relationship then they may be willing to give it a try. Some will then discover that this works for them, and the couple can mutually enjoy the new activity/technique. But of course some will discover that now they have got a very good taste of the new thing that it is NOT for them.

If a woman wants to try Devotional Sex with her partner it's not surprising that most men will react negatively. After all, having far fewer ejaculations and doing only what she wishes sexually can't possibly be of benefit to him. If there is a good relationship, or if the relationship isn't that great and he thinks that trying something very different might help, even though he strongly against the idea he might be willing to give it a go. When she is keen and he is willing to give it a go I suggest a one month trial. If, after the month, he prefers going back to normal then that's it. She can be pleased that he gave it a go, but if it's not for him then it's not for him.

I think this give it a good try to discover whether or not it is for you is appropriate for all techniques - Tantra, BDSM, FemDom, Male Dom, FLR, and chastity.

When there is a base of mutual pleasure and enjoyment with what you do it's easy to then want to please your partner by having some things happen mainly to please them, and for them to do the same for you. This isn't transactional, it's enjoying pleasing your partner.

So thinking as I write this, my conclusion seems to be that the starting point has to be what can you both do that is mutually enjoyable - something that you both want to do to both please yourself and to please your partner.

So a controversial brain dump. What do you all think?

Taking this back to the top,

"Last night I was thinking about why couples where the man wants chastity so often need to have big talks with their partner."

I think the reason there is a lot of talk, and a lot of thinking, and all these posts on this forum is ego. We think too much because our minds are trying to keep us safe. Which prevents us (and our SOs) from getting into our bodies and letting ourselves feel. We feel the need to stay safe for a multitude of reasons. My previous post gives the example of multi-generational trauma (from WW2) that we hold in our bodies that prevents us from being open. Childhood trauma of being shamed, ignored, yelled at, etc, all bottle things up inside us. And we think and think and think our way through it to stay safe. And around the circle we go. "Maybe if I try this with her, or what does she think or mean by that, how do I get her to be more kinky, do what I want...or shame on me for having these thoughts, I need to just suck it up and submit to her, blah blah blah".

Within all of that chatter are actual desires. What are those desires for men?

To lock their dicks up with our partners? Odd request, but sure. Why do we want to do that?

Because we want to be seen.

We want to be accepted. We want our childhood selves, our adult selves, who we are to just be OK. And OK in our partners eyes and their love for us. It our way to be vulnerable and be accepted for the crazy, fantasy and variety loving horny men that we are.

And we end up going in circles because women tell us they want us to be vulnerable....we spend years (here) overthinking it, scared to reveal ourselves, scared that we'll be shamed and ridiculed and all that same childhood stuff. Until the moment we work up the courage to reveal ourselves., and ....

"Ew, why would you want to do that?"
"Sorry, not my thing, not going to join you"
"That's just wrong"
"I don't want sex anyway, why would I want to do chastity with you, I don't need it"

All that judgement we fear hits us like a brick wall from the very person who asks or demands us to open up. All the potential trust betrayed and we're 12 again, holding our dicks in our hands when our mom walked in on us and told us we're wrong and disgusting.

We want chastity because we're guys, we love to wrench on things, we love our dicks, and we love variety. We've traded our freedom to be a boat captain riding the high seas from port to port and taking on any sexy passenger who will hop on our boat (paraphrasing Orion's book here) for a ride and a romp for the weekend...we've traded that for monogomy, for one person [we think] we mutually commit to each other's love, care and support, our support and support of our dicks, a cherished and important part of ourselves and favorite toy we want to share. Only to have that chance at a romp taken away from us with comments like @RonaldT's wife says that she's good, doesn't need sex. Personally she may not, but her relationship does...if it's going to be a healthy, equitable one. It's extremely one sided and selfish to say to your man "I don't need sex, I'm good...go figure it out". WTF? What was the point of marriage, then? That's the whole point of Orion's book. To create a mutually beneficial environment where both sides can get their needs me, feel safe, and ultimately grow through our faults, trauma and learn lessons in life that expand our capacity for love (transcending the transactional). Orion poses the idea of traditional marriage being obsolete, and a new form of connection can emerge, which may take us back to pre-Christian monogomy relationship and more communal-focused relations. But connection is needed, nonetheless. It's who we are as humans, we need each other, we need acceptance, and support from each other.

Chastity in and of itself isn't bad, or a problem, or the culprit of perversion in a relationship. It's a game, it's fun, it's a spice to add to the variety of life.

It can become a problem if it becomes an obsession. It can't be the sole topic or primary focus. Then it's a crutch, like porn, or alcohol, to mask the actual underlying pain. And that's I think a case where things get blurry and confusing. Women will get turned off by that obsessiveness because it wreaks of weakness and addiction. So, introspection of "why am I doing this", "is this the right thing right now" and discretion are important. Do we benefit from chastity in our relationship right now? Sometime's the mood will be right. Sometimes we're men obsessing about something to escape pain...pain of not being seen and heard. So then we need to take ownership of that and figure out how to be seen and heard, and be willing to risk the acceptance or rejection of that from our SO.

I think the DevS commitments are an important dynamic element to consider (regardless of other techniques applied, as you say @DevotionalSex. The commitments address "boundaries", "mutual attentiveness and consideration of needs", communication and being heard and seen.

Anyhow, gotta go for now, but my thoughts to build on yours.

 

[samseaborne]

How was your sex life before all this?

 

[DevotionalSex]

Orion resonates to me because of how he distills relationship dynamics (e.g. the power dynamic) into equivalent economic terms. The concept of the man being a ship captain and his woman being a passenger (and kids and all that) is a helpful analogy. Same as the coins, it articulates a lot about how the underlying male and female drives, behaviors and roles can work.

The man being the leader/captain of a relationship is such a dated concept in my mind that I was surprised to read it. I think of a relationship as being a team, with both being equal, though of course each has strengths and weaknesses.

The first review of the book on GoodReads starts with "I came across the author on social media, where he gives manosphere influenced relationship advice." The manosphere (be it mild or full on) is a return to hierarchical relationships, and has a pretty toxic (in my opinion) view of the role of women.

Rather than debate this, I think this shows that a couple in a similar situation will think about this and thus approach it very differently depending on the couples mindset.

I've done lots of thinking of what factors effect the dynamic of sexual activity (as DevS can be practiced with a friend without a romantic relationship) and I've come to the conclusion that love or not in love isn't an important factor. What makes the biggest difference is whether the dynamic/feel is
A) based on intimacy, connection and mutual pleasure, or
B) if it about getting your desires met, and either transactional or selfish.

The way to move forward, and where you end up, will be very different depending on which camp best describes you. When you are both in the same camp you will be able to work together and use the advice from that camp.

What happens when he is in a different camp from her? I'm not sure, but I think it would be very messy.

DevS requires both to have the intimacy connection mindset. I think Chastity can work with either mindset, but the dynamic and feel will be different for each.